Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

[Elagabalus]

Does anyone know why MJ thinks the scalp incision and direction are significant? Just showing that the pathologists are dishonest?

 

[heymatto70]

Does anyone know why MJ thinks the scalp incision and direction are significant? Just showing that the pathologists are dishonest?

Any little inconsistency could lead to that one big breakthrough that we've been waiting for since 1963.

I mean, scores of experts from all fields have looked over all the evidence for the JFK assassination for years and found nothing, but random people on the internet will hold the key!

 

[bknight]

He'll deny it saying that it was impossible because, because, because.

Yes, those lying doctors covering up the biggest conspiracy, yet.

 

[Axxman300]

Does anyone know why MJ thinks the scalp incision and direction are significant? Just showing that the pathologists are dishonest?

He thinks there is a second GSW to the back of the head below where Oswald bullet struck. He also believes that the brain was removed through the 5 inch hole the bullet created as it exited without cutting the skull cap.

 

[Axxman300]

At the time of the autopsy the FBI and CIA were trying to link Oswald to a larger conspiracy. This is what the most recent documents show, and this was not generated from the top down, FBI field offices around the country, and especially were shaking down their CI's asking if anyone knew Oswald. At any time in that first week one of those CI's could have provided a lead which lead to an arrest of other suspects, and there would be no way for Hoover, or the folks at Langley to stop this. Each FBI field office has a degree of independence because that's how Hoover wanted it. Each field office has the latitude to investigate what it wants to, it's more productive than being centrally run through D.C.

Same was true with the CIA's Mexico City Station, and the memos that came out of there from 11/23/63 onward show they were grilling their informants at the Soviet and Cuban embassies, replaying tapes, and trying to find a Castro-Oswald connection.

Then there is Oswald himself. He could have sang like a bird to the DPD, FBI, and Secret Service while the autopsy was taking place. If he thought he was a patsy that would have been his best chance to stay alive. Face it, he could have shot himself at the boarding house if he wanted to die. Meanwhile you'd have this supposedly rigged autopsy taking place where everyone would be lucky to get life in prison if Oswald talked while it was going on.

Like any CT there are too many moving parts for it to work.

 

[smartcooky]

Any little inconsistency could lead to that one big breakthrough that we've been waiting for since 1963.

I mean, scores of experts from all fields have looked over all the evidence for the JFK assassination for years and found nothing, but random people on the internet will hold the key!

Now where the hell is that sarcasm smiley?

Oh here it is

 

[smartcooky]

At the time of the autopsy the FBI and CIA were trying to link Oswald to a larger conspiracy. This is what the most recent documents show, and this was not generated from the top down, FBI field offices around the country, and especially were shaking down their CI's asking if anyone knew Oswald. At any time in that first week one of those CI's could have provided a lead which lead to an arrest of other suspects, and there would be no way for Hoover, or the folks at Langley to stop this. Each FBI field office has a degree of independence because that's how Hoover wanted it. Each field office has the latitude to investigate what it wants to, it's more productive than being centrally run through D.C.

Same was true with the CIA's Mexico City Station, and the memos that came out of there from 11/23/63 onward show they were grilling their informants at the Soviet and Cuban embassies, replaying tapes, and trying to find a Castro-Oswald connection.

Then there is Oswald himself. He could have sang like a bird to the DPD, FBI, and Secret Service while the autopsy was taking place. If he thought he was a patsy that would have been his best chance to stay alive. Face it, he could have shot himself at the boarding house if he wanted to die. Meanwhile you'd have this supposedly rigged autopsy taking place where everyone would be lucky to get life in prison if Oswald talked while it was going on.

This!

Obvious conspiracy would have been obvious to anyone in any of the FBI field offices or CIA stations in the places Oswald was known to have visited (New Orleans, Mexico City).

Like any CT there are too many moving parts for it to work.

... and too many items means that there are an increasing number of links between the items that have to be maintained and reconciled, without error;

2 items = 1 link
3 items = 3 links
4 items = 6 links
5 items = 10 links
6 items = 15 links
7 items = 21 links

There are also an increasing number of loose ends that need to be tied off.

The best real conspiracies, like Watergate, have a very small number people involved, and even then, they were found out. Only two people knew Bill Clinton was porking a White House intern; him and the intern, but word leaked out.

In order for there to be truth to the JFK conspiracy, there has to be a huge number of people directly involved; and I'm not talking about certifiable nutcases like Jim Files who claims to be the grassy knoll shooter.

- All the pathologists and radiologists
- The top bananas of the FBI, CIA and DoJ
- The ear & eye witnesses in Dealey Plaza
- The gunsmith at Klein's Sporting Goods
- The ballistic forensics experts who matched the bullets to the Carcano
- Earl Warren and the rest of the Warren Commission
- Arlen Specter, who came up with the single bullet solution
- The top bananas in Secret Service as well as the agents on the day
- The motorcycle and street officers of the DPD
- The detectives of the DPD
- The members of the CBA (Committee on Ballistic Acoustics) as well as Steve barber and Dale Myers
- Oswald's co-workers at the TSBD

and more....

That is a lot of stories that have to be kept straight and links that need maintenance, but suffice to say that none of these people (or any other people who would have needed to be involved) have talked, sold their stories to the media or made death-bed confessions.

If there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, it won't be found in Dealey Plaza... anyone who looks there is looking in the wrong place.

 

[Axxman300]

Here's my list for the assassination crew as per JFK-CT's:

Operations Masterminds - 8 to 10 men.
FBI Over-Watch - 10 to 15 men.
Secret Service Liaisons - at least 2.
DPD Moles - 4 Motorcade, 2 HQ, 4 Urban Patrol.
Assassins (Not Oswald) - 3 to 6, 3 in Dealey Plaza, 1 at Trademart, 2 backup.
Lee Oswald - designated fall guy.
Klein's Sporting Goods OR guy who rents mailbox under Oswald/A Heidel's name - 1.
Oswald Look-alikes - 2.
Graphic Artists skilled in manipulating photos, and 8mm film cells - 4.
Jack Ruby
The Guy Who's Supposed to Whack Jack Ruby.
The Autopsy Pathologists - 3.
The Guys Watching the Pathologists for the Next 40 years- 40 (relays of agents).
Warren Commission Moles - 16.
Warren Commission Liaison - 1.
HSCA Moles - 12
HSCA Liaison - 1.
Assorted Goon-Squads in black sedans to intimidate/silence witnesses - 125 to 200.
Readers to Monitor All Print Media - 30.
Viewers to Monitor All TV and Film - 30.
Hollywood Script/Production Moles - 25.
Goon-Squad to Keep Tabs on the Entire Kennedy Clan - 100.
Financial Services - 60.
Travel Services - 10.
Foreign Intelligence Suppression - 60+.
Friendly Foreign Intelligence Liaisons - 20.

Some of those numbers are high and some are low, and I've skipped some line-items, but that's about what would be needed to pull off the conspiracy as advertised. I based it on the new and old Mongoose Files from the National Archives and other documented CIA operations from that time.

I not going to try to estimate the cost of such an operation.

 

[bknight]

This!

Obvious conspiracy would have been obvious to anyone in any of the FBI field offices or CIA stations in the places Oswald was known to have visited (New Orleans, Mexico City).



... and too many items means that there are an increasing number of links between the items that have to be maintained and reconciled, without error;

2 items = 1 link
3 items = 3 links
4 items = 6 links
5 items = 10 links
6 items = 15 links
7 items = 21 links

There are also an increasing number of loose ends that need to be tied off.

The best real conspiracies, like Watergate, have a very small number people involved, and even then, they were found out. Only two people knew Bill Clinton was porking a White House intern; him and the intern, but word leaked out.

In order for there to be truth to the JFK conspiracy, there has to be a huge number of people directly involved; and I'm not talking about certifiable nutcases like Jim Files who claims to be the grassy knoll shooter.

- All the pathologists and radiologists
- The top bananas of the FBI, CIA and DoJ
- The ear & eye witnesses in Dealey Plaza
- The gunsmith at Klein's Sporting Goods
- The ballistic forensics experts who matched the bullets to the Carcano
- Earl Warren and the rest of the Warren Commission
- Arlen Specter, who came up with the single bullet solution
- The top bananas in Secret Service as well as the agents on the day
- The motorcycle and street officers of the DPD
- The detectives of the DPD
- The members of the CBA (Committee on Ballistic Acoustics) as well as Steve barber and Dale Myers
- Oswald's co-workers at the TSBD

and more....

That is a lot of stories that have to be kept straight and links that need maintenance, but suffice to say that none of these people (or any other people who would have needed to be involved) have talked, sold their stories to the media or made death-bed confessions.

If there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, it won't be found in Dealey Plaza... anyone who looks there is looking in the wrong place.

Anything to get notoriety.

 

[MicahJava]

He thinks there is a second GSW to the back of the head below where Oswald bullet struck. He also believes that the brain was removed through the 5 inch hole the bullet created as it exited without cutting the skull cap.

Axxman, I am not technically denying that a Carcano bullet struck the head from behind, especially with the fragments in evidence that were found to contain blood and tissue. The discussion here is about where the small head wound was situated, and a Carcano round entering the EOP could not replicate the wounds shown on the x-rays and brain photographs.

The official story, as dictated by the HSCA forensic pathology panel is that Kennedy's whole brain was removed through a five inch skull cavity. I am the one saying the skull cavity must have been larger.

You either have virtually zero grasp of the JFK forensic evidence, despite claiming you understand this subject and despite being repeatedly reminded in this thread, OR you have chosen to use your time playing the human version of Lenny the automatic telemarketing company harasser.

 

[MicahJava]

Here's my list for the assassination crew as per JFK-CT's:

Operations Masterminds - 8 to 10 men.
FBI Over-Watch - 10 to 15 men.
Secret Service Liaisons - at least 2.
DPD Moles - 4 Motorcade, 2 HQ, 4 Urban Patrol.
Assassins (Not Oswald) - 3 to 6, 3 in Dealey Plaza, 1 at Trademart, 2 backup.
Lee Oswald - designated fall guy.
Klein's Sporting Goods OR guy who rents mailbox under Oswald/A Heidel's name - 1.
Oswald Look-alikes - 2.
Graphic Artists skilled in manipulating photos, and 8mm film cells - 4.
Jack Ruby
The Guy Who's Supposed to Whack Jack Ruby.
The Autopsy Pathologists - 3.
The Guys Watching the Pathologists for the Next 40 years- 40 (relays of agents).
Warren Commission Moles - 16.
Warren Commission Liaison - 1.
HSCA Moles - 12
HSCA Liaison - 1.
Assorted Goon-Squads in black sedans to intimidate/silence witnesses - 125 to 200.
Readers to Monitor All Print Media - 30.
Viewers to Monitor All TV and Film - 30.
Hollywood Script/Production Moles - 25.
Goon-Squad to Keep Tabs on the Entire Kennedy Clan - 100.
Financial Services - 60.
Travel Services - 10.
Foreign Intelligence Suppression - 60+.
Friendly Foreign Intelligence Liaisons - 20.

Some of those numbers are high and some are low, and I've skipped some line-items, but that's about what would be needed to pull off the conspiracy as advertised. I based it on the new and old Mongoose Files from the National Archives and other documented CIA operations from that time.

I not going to try to estimate the cost of such an operation.

Rob Ager's video Conspiracy by Convenience: How conspiracy theorists AND debunkers are getting it wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jerho7zM_uw

 

[HSienzant]

The discussion here is about where the small head wound was situated, and a Carcano round entering the EOP could not replicate the wounds shown on the x-rays and brain photographs.

The official story, as dictated by the HSCA forensic pathology panel is that Kennedy's whole brain was removed through a five inch skull cavity. I am the one saying the skull cavity must have been larger.

As a self-appointed expert on the autopsy, can you tell us what this statement from the autopsy means?

"INCISIONS: The scalp wounds are extended in the coronal plane to examine the cranial content"

Thanks in advance,

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Does anyone know why MJ thinks the scalp incision and direction are significant? Just showing that the pathologists are dishonest?

It's not, at all. How the skull bone was separated is important, not how the scalp was incised.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

 

[carlitos]

Rob Ager's video Conspiracy by Convenience: How conspiracy theorists AND debunkers are getting it wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jerho7zM_uw

I made it through a couple of minutes before this guy gets to his false dilemma - that some people believe nothing is a conspiracy while others believe that everything is a conspiracy. No. The truth does not live in the middle of this false dilemma.

 

[HSienzant]

It's not, at all. How the skull bone was separated is important, not how the scalp was incised.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

Well, that brings us to the the other quote you've been happy to ignore. The one about the comminuted fractures... do you remember it? Or do I need to cite all the times I brought it up and you merely whistled past it?

Here's two of my 16 posts containing that word in the thread preceding this one. At no point did you address the substance of the issue. That with extensively *comminuted* fractures of the skull, inciscions in the *coronal* plane are all that's necessary to remove the brain.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11882204&postcount=532

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11887600&postcount=556

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

As a self-appointed expert on the autopsy, can you tell us what this statement from the autopsy means?

"INCISIONS: The scalp wounds are extended in the coronal plane to examine the cranial content"

Thanks in advance,

Hank

What do you think it means?

 

[MicahJava]

Well, that brings us to the the other quote you've been happy to ignore. The one about the comminuted fractures... do you remember it? Or do I need to cite all the times I brought it up and you merely whistled past it?

Here's two of my 16 posts containing that word. At no point did you address the substance of the issue. That with extensively *comminuted* fractures of the skull, inciscions in the *coronal* plane are all that's necessary to remove the brain.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11882204&postcount=532

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11887600&postcount=556

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

Hank

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

 

[MicahJava]

I made it through a couple of minutes before this guy gets to his false dilemma - that some people believe nothing is a conspiracy while others believe that everything is a conspiracy. No. The truth does not live in the middle of this false dilemma.

Yeah, it's not like that was the point of the rest of the video or anything. lol

 

[MicahJava]

Yes.
He made a mistake. He learned from it, and accepted it.

Perhaps you should follow his example, seeing as you just pasted this about the coronal plane:


First mistake: People will avoid talking about vertical or lateral, to avoid confusion, based on the position of the body. Longitudinal and Transverse are the correct terms.

The coronal plane is longitudinal, dividing the body into ventral and dorsal.
If you stand upright, it runs from scalp to underfoot, dividing you front and back.

So, the cuts could only be longitudinal, not transverse. From top of the head, to the bottom, to allow the front of the skull to be lifted away, to inspect and remove the brain.

There is no ambiguity, or room for any of your previous arguments on the matter.

What people remembered later, is less important than what was recorded at the time, in the autopsy, and the photographs.

You claimed the brain had to be removed through the existing wound, this is not correct. We can see this was not correct.

You were, and are, simply wrong. Cede the point, accept you were wrong, move on, and understand why people disagree with your claims of conspiracy.

tomtomkent, nobody denies the official x-rays and photographs show that some of the forward half of the scalp and skull was part of the large defect. So what are you even talking about?

NSFW, autopsy photos: https://imgur.com/a/ADjaOpv

Reminder: the official government HSCA theory is that the entry was in the parietal bone, not the occipital bone like the autopsy doctors always said.

 

[Tomtomkent]

tomtomkent, nobody denies the official x-rays and photographs show that some of the forward half of the scalp and skull was part of the large defect. So what are you even talking about?

The wounds being extended along the coronal plane.
You suggested, wrongly, those cuts could be extended vertically or laterally.
You were wrong.
Feel free to explain which part of that has lost you.