Brexit: Now What? Part IV

[ceptimus]

The WTO is based in Switzerland. At times it's hard to know when you're crossing the border between an EU country and Switzerland, despite Switzerland never having been an EU member, and having different currency, laws, tax regime, and so on to the adjacent EU countries.


Interestingly, the head of the Swiss Customs Service gave evidence to Westminster's Northern Ireland Affairs Committee last year and explained how it would be possible to maintain an invisible border after Brexit.


Of course, remain supporters won't like this - why should we take any notice of the head of the Customs Service of a non-EU country that has very soft borders with the EU? Obviously he doesn't know what he's talking about!

 

[The Don]

The WTO is based in Switzerland. At times it's hard to know when you're crossing the border between an EU country and Switzerland, despite Switzerland never having been an EU member, and having different currency, laws, tax regime, and so on to the adjacent EU countries.

Have you ever driven a truck between the two countries - the wait can be quite long at times.

That said, Switzerland is a member of the EFTA and as such have agreed to all the kinds of things that Brexiteers are so implacably opposed to such as freedom of movement, membership of Schengen and conformance to EU standards.

Interestingly, the head of the Swiss Customs Service gave evidence to Westminster's Northern Ireland Affairs Committee last year and explained how it would be possible to maintain an invisible border after Brexit.

Yes, it involves being a member of the EFTA and allowing freedom of movement, two things that Brexiteers say that will not happen.

Of course, remain supporters won't like this - why should we take any notice of the head of the Customs Service of a non-EU country that has very soft borders with the EU? Obviously he doesn't know what he's talking about!

Norway is another non-EU country with soft borders but it too is prepared to accept freedom of movement, pays handsomely for the privilege, adheres to EU standards and laws.

The Brexiteers OTOH allegedly want soft borders without any of the "restrictions" that allow them to be implemented (such as adherence to standards and freedom of movement). Actually, more specifically they want one soft border with Ireland in order to keep the DUP happy but a hard border with all the rest of the EU to keep themselves (and also the DUP) happy.

 

[The Don]

More on Switzerland and the EU from the FT which clarifies the situation somewhat IMO:

https://www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-da7e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

Three beige buildings with French and Swiss customs confront you, along with offices for both tax authorities. Europeans, accustomed to crossing other internal land borders within the EU, find this quite odd. Switzerland is part of the EU’s Schengen area, so there are no passport checks required for entry. For food and almost all tradeable industrial and agricultural goods, Switzerland’s regulations are also fully aligned with those of the EU. Both sides accept the others’ regulations. In reality, the Swiss copy and paste Brussels regulations into their domestic laws, allowing the landlocked state effectively to be a member of the EU single market for goods.

I've highlighted the bits that Brexiteers would find unacceptable...

Border infrastructure and customs declarations are necessary, however, because Switzerland is not part of the EU’s customs union or value added tax regime, which are separate from the single market. This difference requires both sides to build and staff a hard border with sometimes significant delays.

....and yet Brexiteers seem to be giving the impression that there is no hard border. Brexiteers making misleading statements - say it ain't so Joe

The Swiss-French border is efficient. There are no applicable tariffs. Regulations for goods are fully aligned. There is a common travel area between the two countries without the need for passport checks. But the border requires hard infrastructure because Switzerland is not in the EU VAT regime nor its customs union. Border frictions have separated markets either side of the border to the detriment of consumers.

So once again, there is a hard border between Switzerland and the EU - something that we couldn't have because of the GFA and DUP - and yet somehow the UK will manage to do without despite being unwilling to accept the kinds of conditions that enable Switzerland to have "only" a slightly hard border.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Like £350 million a week for the NHS? An end to EU immigration? A trade deal with Europe as good as or better than the one we have now? Well of course we know which one of those you actually care about...

A new trade deal with Europe before taking any steps to leave. That was Vote Leave's manifesto pledge.

The stuff they persuaded 52% to vote for was a fantasy.

 

[uke2se]

I read these last few posts from Ceptimus that his position is a Switzerland model. I think that's workable. Of course, it's nothing close to what hard core Brexiteers want, and definitely a soft Brexit, but if the British people are dead set on Brexit, they could do worse than the Swizz model.

 

[The Don]

In other news, Theresa May has confirmed that, post-Brexit, the UK will pay to participate in European science programmes:

The Prime Minister made the strongest commitment yet to "fully associate" the UK with the EU's £68bn research programme post-Brexit.

Theresa May said the UK would be willing to make "an appropriate contribution" and in return it would expect a "suitable level of influence"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44202312

So is this a new age of pragmatism and realism ? Of course not !

Mrs May has also said that the UK would continue to participate in the R&D of the EU's nuclear body, Euratom. Last year, continued involvement had been ruled out because although Euratom is not part of the EU, membership requires being subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice - which the government has said it will not accept

 

[Strawberry]

The WTO is based in Switzerland. At times it's hard to know when you're crossing the border between an EU country and Switzerland, despite Switzerland never having been an EU member, and having different currency, laws, tax regime, and so on to the adjacent EU countries.


Interestingly, the head of the Swiss Customs Service gave evidence to Westminster's Northern Ireland Affairs Committee last year and explained how it would be possible to maintain an invisible border after Brexit.


Of course, remain supporters won't like this - why should we take any notice of the head of the Customs Service of a non-EU country that has very soft borders with the EU? Obviously he doesn't know what he's talking about!

The Swiss do not have an invisible border with the EU despite having Freedom of Movement and a set of bilateral deals with the EU that effectively places them in the single market. They still have cameras and customs posts at the border.

If you have a Swiss style border in Ireland you will have to send the British Army back in to protect it. And if you follow the Swiss model of moving some of the enforcement of border checks away from the border itself, it will only spread violence all over NI.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Just the first round of overarching agreements between Switzerland and the EU took almost 5 years (1994-1999). Further developments have continued and hundreds of individual treaties now exist. Intermediary commissions exist to hash out all kinds of inconsistencies. Recently, however, the EU has been growing more resistant to this sort of "virtual membership" style. Also worth noting Switzerland is part of Schengen and largely must allow free movement of people, goods, etc. Switzerland also pays into the EU budget.

Most of the provisions of this arrangement would be unacceptable to Brexit supporters. Implementing an equivalent also seems like a lot of work (over 2 decades and lots of additional bureaucratic bodies for things to wind through) to end up with 98% the same thing and thus most everything about EU membership that was so objectionable being reimplememted anyways

 

[3point14]

How many nation states exist entirely outside of a trading block or partnership?

Are there really too many national entities that are so fee of interaction with other nations that they are able to entirely play by their own rules and no-one else's

 

[catsmate]

The WTO is based in Switzerland. At times it's hard to know when you're crossing the border between an EU country and Switzerland, despite Switzerland never having been an EU member, and having different currency, laws, tax regime, and so on to the adjacent EU countries.


Interestingly, the head of the Swiss Customs Service gave evidence to Westminster's Northern Ireland Affairs Committee last year and explained how it would be possible to maintain an invisible border after Brexit.


Of course, remain supporters won't like this - why should we take any notice of the head of the Customs Service of a non-EU country that has very soft borders with the EU? Obviously he doesn't know what he's talking about!

I've lived in Switzerland; you have, as usual, no idea what you're talking about.

 

[catsmate]

How many nation states exist entirely outside of a trading block or partnership?

Are there really too many national entities that are so fee of interaction with other nations that they are able to entirely play by their own rules and no-one else's

DPRK maybe?

 

[Strawberry]

DPRK maybe?

No, they're a vassal state of China.

 

[3point14]

DPRK maybe?

This is what I'm thinking. There's the Scandinavian trading bloc, the Pacific, The African, I think there's a South American one. Economic areas with their own internal rules are the norm, not the exception in this instance.

I don't honestly think most brexit loonies know this.

 

[Strawberry]

This is what I'm thinking. There's the Scandinavian trading bloc, the Pacific, The African, I think there's a South American one. Economic areas with their own internal rules are the norm, not the exception in this instance.

I don't honestly think most brexit loonies know this.

There's an Arab one too, complete with freedom of movement. The African Union is phasing in freedom of movement by 2020. This is the way the entire world is moving, and yet Brexiteers think all these countries are going to be there to sign bilateral trade deals with them. Instead they will find themselves as one relatively small country negotiating with massive trade blocs, none of whom will have the EU's tendency to give them opt outs and rebates on demand.

Basically the world we live in has two types of country - those in large trading blocs, and those who are vassal states of large trading blocs. The only two exceptions are the USA and China, both of whom are superpowers.

 

[ceptimus]

I've lived in Switzerland; you have, as usual, no idea what you're talking about.

Why do you make that accusation? What experiences did you have while living in Switzerland that leads you to say that? Why can't you actually address the issue rather than merely attack another poster?

 

[Strawberry]

Why do you make that accusation? What experiences did you have while living in Switzerland that leads you to say that? Why can't you actually address the issue rather than merely attack another poster?

Ceptimus - here is a picture of the Swiss-Italian border....

http://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20140709&t=2&i=925569651&r=LYNXMPEA680EG&w=1280

Would you be willing to stand at the border like that guy in the pic, only instead of between Switzerland and Italy, between Co Louth and South Armagh?

 

[The Don]

Why do you make that accusation? What experiences did you have while living in Switzerland that leads you to say that? Why can't you actually address the issue rather than merely attack another poster?

Perhaps because there were already a number of posts that did exactly what you asked, and which you have ignored...

 

[Andy_Ross]

Why do you make that accusation? What experiences did you have while living in Switzerland that leads you to say that? Why can't you actually address the issue rather than merely attack another poster?

The issue was addressed in several preceding posts in great detail.
If you want what Switzerland has got hen you need to be in Schengen, have free movement and pay the EU money.

 

[Strawberry]

The issue was addressed in several preceding posts in great detail.
If you want what Switzerland has got hen you need to be in Schengen, have free movement and pay the EU money.

And even then you will still need customs posts and personnel at the Irish border.

 

[catsmate]

Why do you make that accusation? What experiences did you have while living in Switzerland that leads you to say that? Why can't you actually address the issue rather than merely attack another poster?

Entered and exited the country many times, by various methods and to numerous destinations.
Shipped or received goods, from/to various states, of various types and to the value of tens of millions of francs.
Arranged for non-national workers to live and work in the federation.
Participated in Swiss politics, including elections and referenda.