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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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He'll come back saying that HSCA experts (meaning one or two) say that the x-rays show something nefarious.

When we point out that we've seen maybe six out of the 40+ autopsy photos he'll say the important ones showing a second bullet are gone from the archives. Same with the x-rays.

Yeah, well that is the common problem when you have critical thinkers debating against conspiracy theorists.

Critical thinkers have to deal in facts, and they are constrained by them; they have to adjust their opinions to deal with those facts and any new facts that may arise.

Conspiracy Theorists have no such constraints, so always have the advantage. When you present them with facts, they can just make up stuff to account for the facts and keep the conspiracy possible.
 
Yeah, well that is the common problem when you have critical thinkers debating against conspiracy theorists.

Critical thinkers have to deal in facts, and they are constrained by them; they have to adjust their opinions to deal with those facts and any new facts that may arise.

Conspiracy Theorists have no such constraints, so always have the advantage. When you present them with facts, they can just make up stuff to account for the facts and keep the conspiracy possible.
Many conspiracists are dreamers.

They dream of a grand conspiracy, and pursue that dream.

Dreams never match reality. And it is the dream they want, not reality. Since they must deal with reality to survive, they continuously strive to bend reality to match that dream.

That's why it is endlessly ironic that so many of them call themselves 'woke'. For those conspiracists, the dream has been framed as reality in their impatience to make the dream real.
 
Many conspiracists are dreamers.

They dream of a grand conspiracy, and pursue that dream.

Dreams never match reality. And it is the dream they want, not reality. Since they must deal with reality to survive, they continuously strive to bend reality to match that dream.

That's why it is endlessly ironic that so many of them call themselves 'woke'. For those conspiracists, the dream has been framed as reality in their impatience to make the dream real.

You know I hadn't thought about CT's in that manner, but it makes a lot of sense.
 
What bothers me about the JFK Assassination CT world is that it is the cornerstone of modern American CTism. It is a "Gateway" CT that opens doors to a world of nonsense, and gets in the way of intellectual progress.

I've said in the past that my dad got me into the CT saying there was no way Oswald could have made the shots alone. I was seven or eight at the time, and when you're a kid your dad knows everything, so there was never a question in my mind that there was a conspiracy to kill the President. My dad was in the Army, my godfather was Army Intelligence, so he must have known something about something...right?

As it turned out, no he didn't know anything. Soldiers spend a lot of time sitting around waiting, AND TALKING. My dad and my godfather were nowhere near Dallas on 11/22/63, instead they were at Incirlik AB in Turkey, where the US flew U2 missions from back in the day. Dad was in a closed environment with US military and civilian intelligence personnel. He was a medic, he had no security clearance, and had no access to classified information nor operational materials.

What I learned over time is that it's common for the rank and file on a high security base to begin to think they know what's going on on the other side of that fence, and behind those keypad-entry doors. It is those same rank and file personnel who go on to become Armchair Espionage Experts in the CT World. This is why my dad saw a conspiracy; not based on any evidence, but because his friend (my godfather) was someone who'd vanish for weeks on end on missions he never talked about, and that made dad special.

Dad had seen JFK in person in Florida during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He thought the President was inspiring, and the idea that some hack ex-Marine air traffic controller acted alone was too much for him, as it was for most Americans.

Dad was typical for his time, and between 1964 and the HSCA in 1976 men like him fed the general population with tales of conspiracy. Not in hushed tones in a dark room, but at Saturday barbecues with neighbors. It always started with, "Well I was in the Army in 1963, and let me tell you...", and the neighbors would listen and nod their heads. Many times one of the other neighbors would chime in with, "I was in the Navy, and this is what I heard...". By the time Mark Lane's first book hit the shelves there was a built-in audience waiting to read, and have their suspicions confirmed.

By 1967 my dad had lost a few friends with the 4thID at Dak To in Vietnam, and the ones who came home had REAL stories about how screwed up things were in SE Asia, and MACV-SOG running all kinds of crazy black-ops. CT logic kicked in from this point onward: If the CIA and US Army have this kind of capability then they must have used it in Dallas. Guys coming back from Vietnam had a built-in cynicism to all things US Government, and there was (and is still) a belief that the war never would have happened in JFK had lived...so they must have killed him to get the Vietnam War.

The JFK Assassination CT gained more traction after Watergate because if that was a real conspiracy then they all have to be real...right? This CT has been framed by MJ as a right-wing conspiracy, but the assassination is also left-wing conspiracy friendly too, which is how you know it's BS. The fact is that you can flip a coin and argue equally that Castro was behind it or the CIA did it. What CTists never realize is that who they think did it reveals everything about them, and nothing about the crime. The only thing the two sides have in common is that neither believes Oswald did it...which is how you know Oswald did it.

Then there is the snobbery of the JFK-CT crowd. They ignore the fact that the assassination has been linked to everything from Hunt Oil to the possible revelation by JFK of the existence of UFO's and extraterrestrial-human contact. The fact that each sub-CT has it's own "thoroughly researched" book or books to substantiate their claim raises no red-flags in the assassination CT world. The idea that a book about MJ-12 killing JFK sits next to a book alleging the Chicago Mob pulling off the assassination should concern most people, but not CTists since each book is considered one step closer to their truth.

The truth is that JFK CTists are no better, and in many cases - less honest than people who believe in UFO's, Bigfoot, Ghosts, and the Loch Ness Monster.

CT books are easier to read than history books because history books force you to read more history books until you understand the context, and get a full picture. Between 1961 and 1964 the Cold War heated up. We had the Bay of Pigs, the Berlin Wall, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the threat of communism in SE Asian and Central America. CT books focus on minutia, those inconsistencies found in any human endeavor, and every criminal case since Cain killed Abel. They never have to consider the idea of the CIA having to pull men off the front lines of the Cold War to conduct what would have to be the single largest operation in Agency history, and what that would mean to national security in real terms.

To them the CIA is magic. History proves the opposite is true.

What have we lost due to the JFK CT?

We could have started to think about gun-control, and established a decent background check system as early as 1966.

We could have reformed the FBI, maybe even forced out Hoover.(Yes, Hoover benefits from a conspiracy, thanks guys).

We could have instituted a mandatory line of communication between the FBI and CIA to keep both sides updated on possible threats (like a former Soviet -Defector from Dallas visiting the Soviet and Cuban Embassies, or Arabs learning to fly, but not land commercial airliners).

We could have rethought our approach to Central and South America.

With each new CT we lose the ability to solve problems because some lunatic demands equal time to spout his insanity as gospel, and with each new conspiracy dangerous men become more dangerous (Tim McVeigh, Dylann Roof, and idiots with Tiki Torches).
 
What bothers me about the JFK Assassination CT world is that it is the cornerstone of modern American CTism. It is a "Gateway" CT that opens doors to a world of nonsense, and gets in the way of intellectual progress.

<SNIP>

What have we lost due to the JFK CT?

<SNIP>

In this context I would recommend James Piereson's Camelot and the Cultural Revolution: How the Assassination of John F. Kennedy Shattered American Liberalism (2007; 2013).

Piereson's thesis is that the Kennedy assassination was a tipping point. Before it, liberalism was not only a dominant but the dominant philosophy of American politics, the sole and triumphant doctrine of government. Afterwards, more punitive elements came to the fore.

One of the highlighting statements he cites is about how Kennedy was struck down by a climate of hate. This led to the liberals turning against America, as being unworthy.

And this is an intellectual attitude that favors conspiracies. All the conspiracies, in spite of their incoherence, inability to address facts, and general disorganization. The conspiracy becomes "compleat", with all inconveniences being manufactured by the conspirators.


It even got a name that will be familiar to you all to comment.

:blackcat:
 
What bothers me about the JFK Assassination CT world is that it is the cornerstone of modern American CTism. It is a "Gateway" CT that opens doors to a world of nonsense, and gets in the way of intellectual progress.

I've said in the past that my dad got me into the CT saying there was no way Oswald could have made the shots alone. I was seven or eight at the time, and when you're a kid your dad knows everything, so there was never a question in my mind that there was a conspiracy to kill the President. My dad was in the Army, my godfather was Army Intelligence, so he must have known something about something...right?

My Dad was also probably responsible for my dabbling in JFK-CT as well. I was eight when the assassination happened. My one clear memory of the day is as vivid as the day it happened... It was about 9am on a Saturday morning in this country. I had been outside playing in the back yard with Barry, my next door neighbour. We went inside to get something to eat/drink, and my Mum and Dad were sitting at the kitchen table; the little PYE "Caddy" transistor radio was on, but I couldn't hear or understand what was being said Mum was crying and Dad had his head between his hands, and I could see he had been crying too. I must have asked his what was wrong, and he said "They killed him, they killed President Kennedy"

As I said, I was only eight. At that time I didn't understand the import of his words, but that set the tone of the JFK assassination for me for me for a long, long time.

What have we lost due to the JFK CT?

We could have started to think about gun-control, and established a decent background check system as early as 1966.

We could have reformed the FBI, maybe even forced out Hoover.(Yes, Hoover benefits from a conspiracy, thanks guys).

We could have instituted a mandatory line of communication between the FBI and CIA to keep both sides updated on possible threats (like a former Soviet -Defector from Dallas visiting the Soviet and Cuban Embassies, or Arabs learning to fly, but not land commercial airliners).

We could have rethought our approach to Central and South America.

With each new CT we lose the ability to solve problems because some lunatic demands equal time to spout his insanity as gospel, and with each new conspiracy dangerous men become more dangerous (Tim McVeigh, Dylann Roof, and idiots with Tiki Torches).


So potentially

No 9/11
No Boston Bombing
No Oklahoma City bombing
No Gulf Wars
No Granada or Panama invasions
No Iran Contra (and Olly North would be Neville Nobody)
Far fewer School shootings and spree shootings

..among others.
 
My Dad was also probably responsible for my dabbling in JFK-CT as well. I was eight when the assassination happened. My one clear memory of the day is as vivid as the day it happened... It was about 9am on a Saturday morning in this country. I had been outside playing in the back yard with Barry, my next door neighbour. We went inside to get something to eat/drink, and my Mum and Dad were sitting at the kitchen table; the little PYE "Caddy" transistor radio was on, but I couldn't hear or understand what was being said Mum was crying and Dad had his head between his hands, and I could see he had been crying too. I must have asked his what was wrong, and he said "They killed him, they killed President Kennedy"

As I said, I was only eight. At that time I didn't understand the import of his words, but that set the tone of the JFK assassination for me for me for a long, long time.




So potentially

No 9/11
No Boston Bombing
No Oklahoma City bombing
No Gulf Wars
No Granada or Panama invasions
No Iran Contra (and Olly North would be Neville Nobody)
Far fewer School shootings and spree shootings

..among others.

I don't think the OKC bombing would have been stopped, those were "true" American heroes that didn't like the way that Waco went down.
 
Because it didn't exist.

The assassination is on film. There is no shot to the front of the head.

Hypothetical frontal shots were not the issue being raised. You have no right to write anything about how you "woke up" from CTs when you fail to demonstrate a working memory of basic facts in the case, a working memory of basic facts repeated here, and basic reading comprehension of my comments.

If you want to believe the official theory on the open-cranium photographs, that they show frontal bone in the foreground, then where anatomically do you think the beveled exit notch on those photographs is located?
 
How would extending the wounds in that direction seperate the scalp from the skull?
How would that allow the contents (on the interior) of the cranium to be examine, if the scalp alone was removed (which would reveal the exterior of a cranium)?
Most people would read that as the scalp being reflected with the skull bones still attached, to allow the contents of the cranium to be examined.

Now the question is if you are failing to understand, or if refusing to cede the point is more important to you than being correct.

Admitting you don’t understand and don’t know is a valid answer.

It works either way you read it, incising the scalp laterally or vertically.
 
He'll come back saying that HSCA experts (meaning one or two) say that the x-rays show something nefarious.

When we point out that we've seen maybe six out of the 40+ autopsy photos he'll say the important ones showing a second bullet are gone from the archives. Same with the x-rays.

You have no clue what you are talking about, as usual. All of the "views" have leaked, all of the remaining photographs are just slightly different versions of the same view. Most of the color photographs have not been leaked. No brain photographs have leaked.
 
What bothers me about the JFK Assassination CT world is that it is the cornerstone of modern American CTism. It is a "Gateway" CT that opens doors to a world of nonsense, and gets in the way of intellectual progress.

I've said in the past that my dad got me into the CT saying there was no way Oswald could have made the shots alone. I was seven or eight at the time, and when you're a kid your dad knows everything, so there was never a question in my mind that there was a conspiracy to kill the President. My dad was in the Army, my godfather was Army Intelligence, so he must have known something about something...right?

As it turned out, no he didn't know anything. Soldiers spend a lot of time sitting around waiting, AND TALKING. My dad and my godfather were nowhere near Dallas on 11/22/63, instead they were at Incirlik AB in Turkey, where the US flew U2 missions from back in the day. Dad was in a closed environment with US military and civilian intelligence personnel. He was a medic, he had no security clearance, and had no access to classified information nor operational materials.

What I learned over time is that it's common for the rank and file on a high security base to begin to think they know what's going on on the other side of that fence, and behind those keypad-entry doors. It is those same rank and file personnel who go on to become Armchair Espionage Experts in the CT World. This is why my dad saw a conspiracy; not based on any evidence, but because his friend (my godfather) was someone who'd vanish for weeks on end on missions he never talked about, and that made dad special.

Dad had seen JFK in person in Florida during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He thought the President was inspiring, and the idea that some hack ex-Marine air traffic controller acted alone was too much for him, as it was for most Americans.

Dad was typical for his time, and between 1964 and the HSCA in 1976 men like him fed the general population with tales of conspiracy. Not in hushed tones in a dark room, but at Saturday barbecues with neighbors. It always started with, "Well I was in the Army in 1963, and let me tell you...", and the neighbors would listen and nod their heads. Many times one of the other neighbors would chime in with, "I was in the Navy, and this is what I heard...". By the time Mark Lane's first book hit the shelves there was a built-in audience waiting to read, and have their suspicions confirmed.

By 1967 my dad had lost a few friends with the 4thID at Dak To in Vietnam, and the ones who came home had REAL stories about how screwed up things were in SE Asia, and MACV-SOG running all kinds of crazy black-ops. CT logic kicked in from this point onward: If the CIA and US Army have this kind of capability then they must have used it in Dallas. Guys coming back from Vietnam had a built-in cynicism to all things US Government, and there was (and is still) a belief that the war never would have happened in JFK had lived...so they must have killed him to get the Vietnam War.

The JFK Assassination CT gained more traction after Watergate because if that was a real conspiracy then they all have to be real...right? This CT has been framed by MJ as a right-wing conspiracy, but the assassination is also left-wing conspiracy friendly too, which is how you know it's BS. The fact is that you can flip a coin and argue equally that Castro was behind it or the CIA did it. What CTists never realize is that who they think did it reveals everything about them, and nothing about the crime. The only thing the two sides have in common is that neither believes Oswald did it...which is how you know Oswald did it.

Then there is the snobbery of the JFK-CT crowd. They ignore the fact that the assassination has been linked to everything from Hunt Oil to the possible revelation by JFK of the existence of UFO's and extraterrestrial-human contact. The fact that each sub-CT has it's own "thoroughly researched" book or books to substantiate their claim raises no red-flags in the assassination CT world. The idea that a book about MJ-12 killing JFK sits next to a book alleging the Chicago Mob pulling off the assassination should concern most people, but not CTists since each book is considered one step closer to their truth.

The truth is that JFK CTists are no better, and in many cases - less honest than people who believe in UFO's, Bigfoot, Ghosts, and the Loch Ness Monster.

CT books are easier to read than history books because history books force you to read more history books until you understand the context, and get a full picture. Between 1961 and 1964 the Cold War heated up. We had the Bay of Pigs, the Berlin Wall, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the threat of communism in SE Asian and Central America. CT books focus on minutia, those inconsistencies found in any human endeavor, and every criminal case since Cain killed Abel. They never have to consider the idea of the CIA having to pull men off the front lines of the Cold War to conduct what would have to be the single largest operation in Agency history, and what that would mean to national security in real terms.

To them the CIA is magic. History proves the opposite is true.

What have we lost due to the JFK CT?

We could have started to think about gun-control, and established a decent background check system as early as 1966.

We could have reformed the FBI, maybe even forced out Hoover.(Yes, Hoover benefits from a conspiracy, thanks guys).

We could have instituted a mandatory line of communication between the FBI and CIA to keep both sides updated on possible threats (like a former Soviet -Defector from Dallas visiting the Soviet and Cuban Embassies, or Arabs learning to fly, but not land commercial airliners).

We could have rethought our approach to Central and South America.

With each new CT we lose the ability to solve problems because some lunatic demands equal time to spout his insanity as gospel, and with each new conspiracy dangerous men become more dangerous (Tim McVeigh, Dylann Roof, and idiots with Tiki Torches).

One time when I mentioned the 6.5 centimeter surgical incision on Kennedy's throat, Axxman mistook centimeters for millimeters and took it as an indicator of a 6.5mm bullet hole in his imagination.
 
Hypothetical frontal shots were not the issue being raised.

Yet you raised it talking about an unreported wound above the right eye.


You have no right to write anything about how you "woke up" from CTs when you fail to demonstrate a working memory of basic facts in the case, a working memory of basic facts repeated here, and basic reading comprehension of my comments.

I every right. I admit that I cannot keep up with your spiraling stupidity, but I have a right. I can keep most of the facts straight, I just can't keep the dribble you present as facts straight.


If you want to believe the official theory on the open-cranium photographs, that they show frontal bone in the foreground, then where anatomically do you think the beveled exit notch on those photographs is located?

First off, who cares?
Second, those are low resolution photographs to begin with, and have digitally degraded. I doubt a qualified pathologist can point anything important out from these pictures.

Third, your obtuse failure to understand ballistics on any level in on display yet again with this question. The beveling could very well only be visible with the naked eye, and or in a high resolution color photo that rests in the National Archives.

Fourth, we know it's there because the 6.5x52mm round exited the skull.
 
One time when I mentioned the 6.5 centimeter surgical incision on Kennedy's throat, Axxman mistook centimeters for millimeters and took it as an indicator of a 6.5mm bullet hole in his imagination.

And I admit my mistakes, how about yours?

Silencers?
A second, invisible GSW to the back of JFK's head that nobody saw?
Posting autopsy photos where it is clear the skull was sawed open while claiming it wasn't sawed open?
Citing CT books as research while not agreeing with the conclusions of those same books?
 
You have no clue what you are talking about, as usual. All of the "views" have leaked, all of the remaining photographs are just slightly different versions of the same view.

If you bothered to read any of the links we've posted you'd know that's no close to true. There is a rundown of what the photographs show along with their catalog numbers.

In this case "Slightly" means dramatically different versions...but whatever...


Most of the color photographs have not been leaked. No brain photographs have leaked.

And why do you think that is? Trick question, they're locked away safe.
 
One time when I mentioned the 6.5 centimeter surgical incision on Kennedy's throat, Axxman mistook centimeters for millimeters and took it as an indicator of a 6.5mm bullet hole in his imagination.

Yes.
He made a mistake. He learned from it, and accepted it.

Perhaps you should follow his example, seeing as you just pasted this about the coronal plane:
It works either way you read it, incising the scalp laterally or vertically.

First mistake: People will avoid talking about vertical or lateral, to avoid confusion, based on the position of the body. Longitudinal and Transverse are the correct terms.

The coronal plane is longitudinal, dividing the body into ventral and dorsal.
If you stand upright, it runs from scalp to underfoot, dividing you front and back.

So, the cuts could only be longitudinal, not transverse. From top of the head, to the bottom, to allow the front of the skull to be lifted away, to inspect and remove the brain.

There is no ambiguity, or room for any of your previous arguments on the matter.

What people remembered later, is less important than what was recorded at the time, in the autopsy, and the photographs.

You claimed the brain had to be removed through the existing wound, this is not correct. We can see this was not correct.

You were, and are, simply wrong. Cede the point, accept you were wrong, move on, and understand why people disagree with your claims of conspiracy.
 
Yes.
He made a mistake. He learned from it, and accepted it.

Perhaps you should follow his example, seeing as you just pasted this about the coronal plane:


First mistake: People will avoid talking about vertical or lateral, to avoid confusion, based on the position of the body. Longitudinal and Transverse are the correct terms.

The coronal plane is longitudinal, dividing the body into ventral and dorsal.
If you stand upright, it runs from scalp to underfoot, dividing you front and back.

So, the cuts could only be longitudinal, not transverse. From top of the head, to the bottom, to allow the front of the skull to be lifted away, to inspect and remove the brain.

There is no ambiguity, or room for any of your previous arguments on the matter.

What people remembered later, is less important than what was recorded at the time, in the autopsy, and the photographs.

You claimed the brain had to be removed through the existing wound, this is not correct. We can see this was not correct.

You were, and are, simply wrong. Cede the point, accept you were wrong, move on, and understand why people disagree with your claims of conspiracy.

Ah man you gave it up to him.:jaw-dropp
 
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