Ed Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday

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Meadmaker said:
I took a look at all the indictments that have come out of the Mueller investigation, and it really illustrates very well why I am so disappointed with the media coverage and most discussion of it.

The majority of indictments have been against Russian operatives who used identity theft to spread falsehoods on social media and use those falsehoods to sow discord among Americans. That ought to be big news. The Russians have an ongoing, active, propaganda campaign to undermine American democracy, and it's working, and they are breaking laws in order to make it happen. That's important stuff.

But it doesn't use the word "Trump", so it's largely ignored.

The right wing wants to shut the investigation down because they're afraid it might dig some dirt on Trump. The left wing wants to keep it going, but they overlook the little matter of Russian dirty tricks unless somehow it is connected to Trump. This investigation is doing important work. It's also looking into the Trump campaign.


If Trump staffers played an active role supporting the crimes of the Russians who have been indicted, I would be all for throwing the book at them, including at the Big Cheese himself, but I don't think that happened. I think that, to the extent they had anything to do with it, they were just played by the Russians. That's worth knowing, but it won't, and shouldn't, result in impeachment, assuming that's all there is.

Well, I await the report, but I fear that when the investigation wraps up it will say, "There was a concerted effort by the Russians to subvert American democracy, but Donald Trump wasn't part of that effort." and the country will say, "So, no big deal, right?"
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I must admit I don't see what you are seeing. The only people who are ignoring Russia's actions are the Republicans defending Trump. I don't see anyone on the left or mainstream media (outside Fox) downplaying or ignoring Russian interference. Facebook and fake news has been in the headlines for months.

Republicans want to discredit the intelligence community for detailing Russian interference and refuse to implement countermeasures, yet you lump leftists who are out of power and "too concerned with Trump" into the same boat of "ignoring Russian interference"?

One side is using its powers to deny and prevent addressing Russian interference and subvert other branches of the US government, and the other you feel is too focused on Trump, even though Russian interference is the fundamental part of their narrative.

No, they are not comparable at all.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Nah - I think it'll be worse than that. A little under half will say "No big deal then"... and a little under the other half will decide that Mueller is a Trump shill and that the FBI is a republican front. There'll only be a slim segment of us in the middle who say "This is really important and we should do something about it!".
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This and the Meadmaker's post are why I can't stand self-proclaimed, uniquely wise, above it all moderates. Trump calls Russian interference a hoax, Nunes works to undermine and hinder the Justice Department and intelligence communities, the Republican controlled White House and Congress refuse to address the interference. It is clearly one side that is failing on this issue.
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
I must admit I don't see what you are seeing. The only people who are ignoring Russia's actions are the Republicans defending Trump. I don't see anyone on the left or mainstream media (outside Fox) downplaying or ignoring Russian interference. Facebook and fake news has been in the headlines for months.

Republicans want to discredit the intelligence community for detailing Russian interference and refuse to implement countermeasures, yet you lump leftists who are out of power and "too concerned with Trump" into the same boat of "ignoring Russian interference"?

One side is using its powers to deny and prevent addressing Russian interference and subvert other branches of the US government, and the other you feel is too focused on Trump, even though Russian interference is the fundamental part of their narrative.

No, they are not comparable at all.
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I don't watch a lot of TV news, but when I'm at the gym, I often watch CNN. It seems to be nonstop coverage of Trump's legal trouble, and that is indeed the focus. Whether it's Michael Cohen, Stormy Daniels, Paul Manafort, or whatever, the questions always come back to whether Trump new anything about it. Could this or that move by Trump be considered obstruction of justice? etc. etc. Worthwhile questions, but they sure talk about it a lot. On the times when they brought up the Russian fake news campaign, the focus was always, "Was the Trump campaign involved?"

They just seem obsessed. Meanwhile, on the right, Hannity is always saying, "Shut it down!" and literally never mentions the Russian indictments.

So, maybe there are a lot of people very concerned about the Russians, but the ones I hear talking seem most concerned about whether the Russians could be used as a tool to get rid of Trump.
 
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Meadmaker said:
I don't watch a lot of TV news, but when I'm at the gym, I often watch CNN. It seems to be nonstop coverage of Trump's legal trouble, and that is indeed the focus. Whether it's Michael Cohen, Stormy Daniels, Paul Manafort, or whatever, the questions always come back to whether Trump new anything about it. Could this or that move by Trump be considered obstruction of justice? etc. etc. Worthwhile questions, but they sure talk about it a lot. On the times when they brought up the Russian fake news campaign, the focus was always, "Was the Trump campaign involved?"

They just seem obsessed. Meanwhile, on the right, Hannity is always saying, "Shut it down!" and literally never mentions the Russian indictments.

So, maybe there are a lot of people very concerned about the Russians, but the ones I hear talking seem most concerned about whether the Russians could be used as a tool to get rid of Trump.
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I'm going to say that CNN at the gym and Hannity don't cover the spectrum of public discourse and official policy debate :p .

Let's look at Pelosi's February statement for example:

“The Special Counsel’s indictments make absolutely clear that the Russians perpetrated a strategic effort to undermine and influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election to support the campaign of Donald Trump, and are continuing to interfere with our elections. As desperately as President Trump insists that the Special Counsel investigation is a ‘hoax’, these latest indictments build on multiple guilty pleas and indictments of several Trump campaign officials, demonstrating the gravity of the Trump-Russia scandal.

“It is imperative that the Special Counsel investigation be allowed to continue to follow the facts on the Trump-Russia scandal, unhindered by the White House or Republicans in Congress. The American people deserve to know the full extent of Russia’s interference in our election and the involvement of Trump officials. Yet, disturbingly, the President has not presented a strategic plan to confront the Russians and refuses to enact the sanctions against Russians as required by Congress. Nor has the Republican-controlled House acted to secure our election system from further Russian and foreign interference.

“We are on the eve of the 2018 midterm elections. There is no time to waste to defend the integrity of our elections and our democracy.”
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Linky.

Might she and Democrats be using it as a tool, as per the "Trump-Russia scandal" rhetoric? Perhaps, but that doesn't discount that she is calling for investigation and action against Russian interference as opposed to Republicans who are utterly failing to do so.

I'm not seeing why questioning motivations like "their heart isn't really in it" or "they are motivated by political strategy" is in any way comparable to what the Republicans are doing, and specifically not doing, in confronting the Russian interference.
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
This and the Meadmaker's post are why I can't stand self-proclaimed, uniquely wise, above it all moderates. Trump calls Russian interference a hoax, Nunes works to undermine and hinder the Justice Department and intelligence communities, the Republican controlled White House and Congress refuse to address the interference. It is clearly one side that is failing on this issue.
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What exactly was the Russian interference? Meaning, what was it they were doing to interfere with our elections. Seems to me they were running adds that were either misleading, fake news or some other form of false advertising. It just doesn’t rise to the level of some sort of earth shattering crime.
 
plague311 said:
Are we watching the same news come out? That is a legitimate question. I totally understand the overplayed "I'll wait and see, but won't speculate." It's an intellectually safe position to play. In all honesty though, there is Russian money flooding to Trump and his campaign from all over the place. It's been proven Cohen got money linked to Russia, there's a link that the NRA got money to help Trump from Russia, meetings between Kushner, et. al., and the list goes on and on.

I'll let you enjoy the perch, and by no means do I expect people to just agree with me, but good God. This is the problem. We've now grown so much more tolerant of this ignorant jackass's actions that all of this compiling evidence is becoming a shoulder shrug for Americans. It's really, really tough to watch. If this were any other sane administration the sky would be falling, now there are a portion of American's that seem to dismiss it.

Awesome.
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Why would the sky be falling if it was another administration? Seems like many of these people didn’t even know they got Russian money. Besides campaigns have been getting foreign money since I’ve been following politics.

I’d really like to know what specifically the Russians did. Which stories were fake news along with whatever else they were involved with.
 
logger said:
Why would the sky be falling if it was another administration? Seems like many of these people didn’t even know they got Russian money. Besides campaigns have been getting foreign money since I’ve been following politics.
I’d really like to know what specifically the Russians did. Which stories were fake news along with whatever else they were involved with.
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Any examples? With citations, mind.
 
logger said:
What exactly was the Russian interference? Meaning, what was it they were doing to interfere with our elections. Seems to me they were running adds that were either misleading, fake news or some other form of false advertising. It just doesn’t rise to the level of some sort of earth shattering crime.
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Earth shattering seems like moving the goalposts. I was under the impression earth shattering wasn't a required threshold.
 
Meadmaker said:
<snip>

So, maybe there are a lot of people very concerned about the Russians, but the ones I hear talking seem most concerned about whether the Russians could be used as a tool to get rid of Trump.
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I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

A lot of people are concerned about the Russians' involvement with the Trump campaign and administration and if (as seems to be becoming increasingly likely) there is substance to Trump's complicity, then Trump needs to be gotten rid of.

It probably isn't the only reason he needs to be gotten rid of, but conspiring with a hostile foreign power to manipulate the results of a presidential election with the intent to provide services in return certainly ought to qualify, if nothing else would.
 
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Meadmaker said:
I don't watch a lot of TV news, but when I'm at the gym, I often watch CNN. It seems to be nonstop coverage of Trump's legal trouble, and that is indeed the focus. Whether it's Michael Cohen, Stormy Daniels, Paul Manafort, or whatever, the questions always come back to whether Trump new anything about it. Could this or that move by Trump be considered obstruction of justice? etc. etc. Worthwhile questions, but they sure talk about it a lot. On the times when they brought up the Russian fake news campaign, the focus was always, "Was the Trump campaign involved?"

They just seem obsessed. Meanwhile, on the right, Hannity is always saying, "Shut it down!" and literally never mentions the Russian indictments.

So, maybe there are a lot of people very concerned about the Russians, but the ones I hear talking seem most concerned about whether the Russians could be used as a tool to get rid of Trump.
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TV news is about people's dirty laundry and anything else that makes good video. Get some video of Russians colluding that looks like something out of Jason Bourne and maybe the news would pay attention. I recommend watching Network again.
 
logger said:
What exactly was the Russian interference? Meaning, what was it they were doing to interfere with our elections. Seems to me they were running adds that were either misleading, fake news or some other form of false advertising. It just doesn’t rise to the level of some sort of earth shattering crime.
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The crime that they were committing was identity theft. That's what they were indicted for. (I don't know the exact charges, but they weren't always using their own accounts to spread the fake news.)

You are illustrating my point very well. Here we have the Russians coming in and deliberately running a propaganda campaign whose purpose is to sow discord in the United States, so that while the American people are setting at each others' throats, Putin can regain some of that old Soviet glory. That ought to be a big deal but........hey, there's no crime, or, well, not much of a crime, so who cares?

Their plan is working, and you are one of their pawns.

And speaking of pawns, I just returned from the gym, and there was Anderson Cooper on CNN, with a headline, "Breaking News". It seems that Rudy Giuliani was told by someone in the Mueller team that Mueller's team will adhere to Justice Department guidelines that they will not indict a sitting President. They then discussed the implications with tonight's panel, with a special emphasis on the implications for impeachment.

The only mention of Russians came during the segment about whether or not anyone could possibly believe Don Jr's claim that he hadn't discussed the Trump Tower meeting with Don Sr.

So, while you, logger, might be one of their pawns, Cooper is a much more significant pawn. I'll bet Putin laughs himself to sleep every night.
 
Meadmaker said:
The crime that they were committing was identity theft. That's what they were indicted for. (I don't know the exact charges, but they weren't always using their own accounts to spread the fake news.)

You are illustrating my point very well. Here we have the Russians coming in and deliberately running a propaganda campaign whose purpose is to sow discord in the United States, so that while the American people are setting at each others' throats, Putin can regain some of that old Soviet glory. That ought to be a big deal but........hey, there's no crime, or, well, not much of a crime, so who cares?

Their plan is working, and you are one of their pawns.

And speaking of pawns, I just returned from the gym, and there was Anderson Cooper on CNN, with a headline, "Breaking News". It seems that Rudy Giuliani was told by someone in the Mueller team that Mueller's team will adhere to Justice Department guidelines that they will not indict a sitting President. They then discussed the implications with tonight's panel, with a special emphasis on the implications for impeachment.

The only mention of Russians came during the segment about whether or not anyone could possibly believe Don Jr's claim that he hadn't discussed the Trump Tower meeting with Don Sr.

So, while you, logger, might be one of their pawns, Cooper is a much more significant pawn. I'll bet Putin laughs himself to sleep every night.
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Well It’s obvious being a pawn is a terrible thing, but I don’t know why I’m a pawn.


What exactly was the propaganda campaign about.
I’d like to know what this discord was?
How does Putin regain old Soviet glory from it.
And lastly how the hell am I a pawn because of it!


You’re all making a huge deal of this and nobody knows what the hell these Russians did.
 
logger said:
What exactly was the Russian interference? Meaning, what was it they were doing to interfere with our elections. Seems to me they were running adds that were either misleading, fake news or some other form of false advertising. It just doesn’t rise to the level of some sort of earth shattering crime.
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Hacking our voting systems.

Trying to establish a Quid-Pro-Quo with the trump campaign.
 
Meadmaker said:
...
The majority of indictments have been against Russian operatives who used identity theft to spread falsehoods on social media and use those falsehoods to sow discord among Americans.
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Majority by numbers, not necessarily by significance?


That ought to be big news. The Russians have an ongoing, active, propaganda campaign to undermine American democracy, and it's working, and they are breaking laws in order to make it happen. That's important stuff.

But it doesn't use the word "Trump", so it's largely ignored.
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Ignored by whom?


... The left wing wants to keep it going, but they overlook the little matter of Russian dirty tricks unless somehow it is connected to Trump. This investigation is doing important work. It's also looking into the Trump campaign.
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Not sure what you are judging left overlooking by. Democratic legislators have been discussing it and I believe there are some bills pending. They most certainly are not overlooking the Russian dirty tricks. They are screaming about Trump blocking any (or at least most) actions they believe the POTUS should be taking.

It's Trump's job to stand against foreign enemies like this and he's doing nothing except crying "no collusion" over and over and dismissing the ongoing threat because he can't accept that he might not have won the election without Russian help. His pathologic narcissism, IOM, is literally preventing him from accepting the threat of Russian interference including ongoing interference.


If Trump staffers played an active role supporting the crimes of the Russians who have been indicted, I would be all for throwing the book at them, including at the Big Cheese himself, but I don't think that happened. I think that, to the extent they had anything to do with it, they were just played by the Russians. That's worth knowing, but it won't, and shouldn't, result in impeachment, assuming that's all there is.
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You have some pretty narrow criteria there. How about if the Trump Campaign knew the Russians were interfering and they cheered them on? Does that count? As for playing Trump, sure they did. It's obvious they outclass him by far. But what about the quo in the quid pro quo? There are a number of specific acts taken in the Russian's favor.

And the latest news is an entire payoff scheme: just fund Kushner or Trump properties and let Trump know what you want in return. Sanctions lifted from a Chinese telecom, no problem. Classified intelligence leaked to the Saudi Prince about his rivals, no problem.


Well, I await the report, but I fear that when the investigation wraps up it will say, "There was a concerted effort by the Russians to subvert American democracy, but Donald Trump wasn't part of that effort." and the country will say, "So, no big deal, right?"
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You aren't paying attention.
 
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