• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Define “Agnostic”

BadBoy said:
I believe you may be correct, though not totally because you need to provide evidence. But I think what you said could be true, and probably is true - to some extent. But I'm prepared to change my mind. :D
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: :egglaugh:
 
Fudbucker said:
Easy: It's entirely possible the first person to set foot on Mars will be a woman, right? What's the possibility that the first person who steps foot on Mars will be a 5'6'' left-handed woman who's first name starts with "M"?
Click to expand...



I think the massive cognitive dissonance you're now suffering at almost realising that all gods are fictional has actually broken your brain.

Would you like me to ask the question again? Or might that cause more damage?
 
ynot said:
"Disbelief" (belief of lack) and "don't hold a belief" (lack of belief) are not the same thing. Why does this have to be pointed out ad infinitum?
Click to expand...

The problem is that we use expressions that are not very clear. It would be simpler if we say that there are three positions according to what is claimed:
(1) X exists.
(2) X does not exist
(3) You can't say either one or the other.
But we complicate it by talking about the belief in the non-belief in believing that... We believe that we are specifying and we are actually creating confusion.
And I don't care how the three positions are called or how many types you can divide them into. Let's start with the elementary and then we'll complicate things.
 
JoeMorgue said:
That's giving belief a little bit too much power for my taste.

"God exists" is an opinion
Click to expand...

No. It's a belief. And I don't see why you think I'm giving belief too much power. Belief is just an emotional hunch. It doesn't make it any true, of course. But it's a real type of feeling human beings experience.
 
JesseCuster said:
But an agnostic is not someone who doesn't know whether there's a God, an agnostic is someone who believes that they don't know whether there's a god (or believes it can't be known, or other variations on the idea).
Click to expand...

No. An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if there is a God. Now you're throwing "belief" inside the definition of Agnosticism and you're not helping you or anyone make things clearer. I don't understand this tendency to keep redefining simple concepts. Agnosticism is an issue of epistemology. It deals with what we know. Period.

Of course, someone could decide to go down the philosophical rabbit hole and start asking "Well, do you even know if you exist? How do you know you're not a robot or a computer simulation? blablabla", but I'm not interested in those science fiction metaphysical philosophical games. There is a very clear definition of Agnosticism.
 
Last edited:
3point14 said:
I think the massive cognitive dissonance you're now suffering at almost realising that all gods are fictional has actually broken your brain.

Would you like me to ask the question again? Or might that cause more damage?
Click to expand...

I've noticed here that when people who don't know philosophy try to do philosophy, it doesn't go so well. I will try to explain: the more specific the claim you're making, the more ways there are to be wrong. The claim "alien life exists" encompasses a lot of possibilities. The claim alien life exists ten thousand light years from us and has three legs is a specific subset of the claim "alien life exists". It is more much more likely to be wrong, but even if it IS wrong, it does not disconfirm the claim "alien life exists" (well, a tiny bit). This is true whenever you go from generic claims like "the first person on Mars will be a woman" to specific claims like "the first person on Mars will be a woman with X characteristics."

Now, let's see if you can make the connection between what I just said to theism, and the very specific gods people claim exist, and how their non-existence doesn't affect theism, overall.
 
Last edited:
Fudbucker said:
I've noticed here that when people who don't know philosophy try to do philosophy, it doesn't go so well.
Click to expand...


I might do better if you answered the question.

My lack of knowledge does not excuse your lack of response.

How about, given that you claim knowledge I don't have, you answer the question I posed. At the moment it just looks like you're dodging, first by making an inappropriate and nonsensical analogy then by posting an answer so ridiculous that nobody understood it. This might be because the answer is so brilliant that I can't understand it. In which case, can you dumb it down for me to give me a chance to understand it.

Here's the initial exchange again for your reference:

Fudbucker said:
The ridiculousness of a particular fictional religion (Scientology) has a much to do with the possible existence of god(s) as the ridiculousness of a particular fictional alien life (Vogons) has to do with the possible existence of alien life. Which is to say, nothing.
Click to expand...



3point14 said:
Can I ask how you, personally, distinguish a "fictional religion" from a religion?
Click to expand...
 
3point14 said:
I might do better if you answered the question.

My lack of knowledge does not excuse your lack of response.

How about, given that you claim knowledge I don't have, you answer the question I posed. At the moment it just looks like you're dodging, first by making an inappropriate and nonsensical analogy then by posting an answer so ridiculous that nobody understood it. This might be because the answer is so brilliant that I can't understand it. In which case, can you dumb it down for me to give me a chance to understand it.

Here's the initial exchange again for your reference:
Click to expand...

I gave you an answer in post 183:

The same way you distinguish a "fictional alien" from an alien.
Click to expand...

Do you think the FSM exists? No, it's preposterous. Does it's non-existence harm the general proposition "alien life exists"? Of course not.

Do you think Xenu exists? No, it's preposterous. Does it's non-exisence harm the general proposition "god(s) exist"? Of course not.
 
Fudbucker said:
I gave you an answer in post 183:



Do you think the FSM exists? No, it's preposterous. Does it's non-existence harm the general proposition "alien life exists"? Of course not.

Do you think Xenu exists? No, it's preposterous. Does it's non-exisence harm the general proposition "god(s) exist"? Of course not.
Click to expand...


I still don't get it. Can you try it without analogy. I don't get your analogies.

What's the criteria for the decision? What qualities are you looking at?

When presented with a religion you've never heard of before, what is it you would need to know about that religion to be able to assess if it's fictional or not?
 
Last edited:
Fudbucker said:
Do you think the FSM exists? No, it's preposterous.
Click to expand...
No more or less preposterous than thinking any type of imaginary god(s) actually exist.

Fudbucker said:
Does it's non-existence harm the general proposition "alien life exists"? Of course not.
Click to expand...
You prove the non-existence of the FSM.
To correlate impossible fictional aliens with possible actual aliens as an analogy is a good example of “preposterous”.

Fudbucker said:
Do you think Xenu exists? No, it's preposterous.
Click to expand...
No more or less preposterous than thinking any type of imaginary god(s) actually exist.

Fudbucker said:
Does it's non-exisence harm the general proposition "god(s) exist"? Of course not.
Click to expand...
You prove the non-existence of Xenu.
Does the non-existence of "God" harm the general proposition paranormal belief "Xenu exist"? Of course not.

You have yet to explain how this . . .
Fudbucker said:
Easy: It's entirely possible the first person to set foot on Mars will be a woman, right? What's the possibility that the first person who steps foot on Mars will be a 5'6'' left-handed woman who's first name starts with "M"?
Click to expand...
Is an expanation of this . . .
Fudbucker said:
The same way you distinguish a "fictional alien" from an alien.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you are obviously the one dancing too far from the music.
 
Last edited:
Fudbucker said:
Do you think the FSM exists? No, it's preposterous. Does it's non-existence harm the general proposition "alien life exists"? Of course not.

Do you think Xenu exists? No, it's preposterous. Does it's non-exisence harm the general proposition "god(s) exist"? Of course not.
Click to expand...

Sure, but this entire line of argument is a red herring.

We know for certain that life exists, so the possible existence of more life elsewhere isn't much of a stretch.

So far there is no credible evidence that any god of any sort exists at all.
 
jrhowell said:
Sure, but this entire line of argument is a red herring.

We know for certain that life exists, so the possible existence of more life elsewhere isn't much of a stretch.

So far there is no credible evidence that any god of any sort exists at all.
Click to expand...

What credible evidence is there that alien life exists?
 
jrhowell said:
Sure, but this entire line of argument is a red herring.

We know for certain that life exists, so the possible existence of more life elsewhere isn't much of a stretch.

So far there is no credible evidence that any god of any sort exists at all.
Click to expand...
And that complete lack of credible evidence isn’t changed by how long and how many people believe in a particular god. Exactly the same lack of evidence there is for Xenu, FSM or any other imaginary god that can be made up on the spot in five minutes or less.
 
I always wonder how theists would react if life (especially intelligent life) was ever found beyond Earth. I expect it would be merely hand-waved away with moving of goalposts and excuses of convenience.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom