Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

[manifesto]

If you had any idea how many dead cops heard that phrase, or something like it before they were murdered you'd know how stupid this question is.

Before being apprehended, yes, but Oswald was yelling this while being severely beaten by the arresting officer.

Your unwillingness to accept reality is your problem.

Evidence = reality. Bogus evidence = bogus reality.

This is why you're such a disappointment.

Well, thank you, mission accomplished.

Everything you just wrote is pedestrain, low-grade, rookie CTist junk that has debunked decades ago (even by other CTists). You're not challenging anybody here, and you haven't brought anything new to the table.

Well, if so, show it.

Oswald shot JFK

No he certainly did not.

and Tippit,

No he certainly did not.

this is not in question any more.

Outside the Mighty Church of the Lone Nut, this has been in question since day one, still counting more than half a century later.

Inside same Mighty Church, this became an article of religious faith the day Oswald was silenced by mafia/DPD liaison, Jack Ruby, while in custody of said DPD.

If you want a conspiracy

I do not want a conspiracy, I want the truth to be known and the culprits brought to justice. Posthumous if necessary. This also includes the assassinations of all the rest of the peoples leaders assassinated by the same grouping responsible for the assassination of JFK.

Lumumba, Hammarskjöld, MLK, RFK, Arbenz, Gen. Sneyder, Alleende, Aldo Moro, ... the list is long and bloody and it is due time.

you have to look into who Oswald might have known,

I believe that Oswald believed that he had infiltrated a conspiracy to assassinate JFK, and when informing his US Intel handler got the answer that the culprits would be arrested before the motorcade reached Dealey Plaza. When realizing that the assassins succeeded in ambushing JFK in spite of this, he went to the Texas Theater to meet his handler/cut out to find out what went wrong.

and if they were connected to a larger conspiracy.

Oswald did not have the qualities expected from an assassin and he clearly admired JFK, bragging about the young and progressive president to his russian friends in Minsk.

He was a pathological liar.

Like you? No he wasn’t even a liar.

Name one proven lie from Oswald. One.

Not good enough.

Again, comming from you I have to thank you.

Thank you.

 

[RoboTimbo]

No he certainly did not.

, that he murdered Officer Tippitt after assassinating JFK is beyond question.

 

[traxy]

How do you know that the white SS car is about to begin its turn and not already began to turn before it becomes visible in the Z-film?

Again, I used my eyes.

The vehicle is moving straight down Houston at that point in both films. Roll forward a few frames and it is starting to turn in both films. The car immediately in front of it is in the middle of the intersection in both films.

This isn't wizardry. Between the 2 vantage points the entire intersection is visible, there isn't some mystical gap in between that they could get lost in.

 

[traxy]

, that he murdered Officer Tippitt after assassinating JFK is beyond question.

No kidding.

Arrested with the murder weapon in his possession, picked out of a police lineup by 5 separate witnesses. What more could you possibly need to see to assign guilt to Oswald for it?

 

[manifesto]

No kidding.

Arrested with the murder weapon in his possession,

There are 3-4 versions of this on record. Which version do you like the most?

And no, no one has been able to connect the weapon to the Tippit murder and no, Oswald could not have bought the weapon in the way lined out by the FBI.

picked out of a police lineup by 5 separate witnesses.

Name them.

What more could you possibly need to see to assign guilt to Oswald for it?

Well, how about some evidence?

 

[manifesto]

Again, I used my eyes.

The vehicle is moving straight down Houston at that point in both films. Roll forward a few frames and it is starting to turn in both films. The car immediately in front of it is in the middle of the intersection in both films.

This isn't wizardry. Between the 2 vantage points the entire intersection is visible, there isn't some mystical gap in between that they could get lost in.

I ask again. How do you know the movements of car-5 BEFORE it becomes visible in the Z-film? You are saying that it begins to turn in both films but you can’t know this since the car-5 could have began to turn earlier, stop turning for a bit and began to turn again. It was a tricky turn of almost 45˚ and the distances and angles from both cameras far from optimal to determine inferred movements of the vehicles relevant to the eye-balling.

That is why Myers is trying to fool us with fancy scientific concepts as ”epipolar geometry”, because he understands the conditions. Without scientifically fixed points in a moving space all measurements becomes subjective and aproximate at best and no, so far you haven’t showed that Myers didn’t really have to lie if he had followed your reasoned eye-balling.

Compare to this, Robertsons video analyses of what only could have been a white motorcycle helmet arriving at the right spot at the right time of the first shot is far superior.

If not a white helmet, what is it?

Process of elimination leaves us with, McLain: https://youtu.be/N_2xe86zxTQ

 

[traxy]

There are 3-4 versions of this on record. Which version do you like the most?

No, pretty much just one version. Oswald approached by a Dallas PD officer while sitting in the Texas Theater, punches him in the face and pulls out a revolver. Johnny Brewer, George Applin, Patrolman McDonald, John Gibson, other officers all told pretty much the same version.

And no, no one has been able to connect the weapon to the Tippit murder

Patently false.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-10.html#revcar

When Oswald was arrested six live cartridges were found in the revolver. Three were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated lead bullets, and three were Remington-Peters .38 Specials, loaded with lead bullets. Five additional live cartridges were found in Oswald's pocket, all of which were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated bullets. The Western and Remington-Peters .88 Special cartridges are virtually identical--the copper coating on the Western bullets is not a full jacket, but only a gilding metal, put on principally for sales appeal.

Four expended cartridge cases were found near the site of the Tippit killing. Two of these cartridge cases were Remington-Peters .38 Specials and two were Western .38 Specials. Based on a comparison with test cartridge cases fired in the V510210 revolver, the four cartridge cases were identified as having been fired in the V510210 revolver.

Four bullets were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. In Nicol's opinion one of the four bullets could be positively identified with test bullets fired from V510210 revolver, and the other three could have been fired from that revolver.

Name them.

15 Witnesses to the murder of Tippit

Domingo Benavides
Robert Brock
Jimmy Earl Burt
Ted Callaway
Barbara Jennette Davis
Virginia Davis
Sam Guinyard
L J Lewis
Helen Markham
B M Patterson
Warren Allen Reynolds
Harold Russell
William W Scoggins
Jak Ray Tatum
Acquilla Clemons

Benavides http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/benavide.htm
Brock M http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/brock_m.htm
Brock R http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/brock_r.htm
Burt http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/burt.htm
Callaway http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/callaway.htm
Davis http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bdavis.htm
Guinyard http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/guinyard.htm
Lewis http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lewis_l1.htm
Markham http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/markham1.htm
Patterson http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/patterson.htm
Reynolds http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/reynolds_w.htm
Russell http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/russell_h.htm
Scoggins http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/scoggins.htm
Tatum http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/tatum.htm

 

[traxy]

I ask again. How do you know the movements of car-5 BEFORE it becomes visible in the Z-film?

I can see it approaching the intersection in the Hughes film.

Between the 2 films, the entirety of the intersection is visible.

They synchronize, no matter how ridiculously you flail about trying to insist otherwise. You can't even name a single discrepancy between the positions of the vehicles in the synchronized frames. I've asked you to name what differences you see multiple times, you've punted each time.

 

[Disbelief]

I see we're getting a lot of new people asking Manifesto to post the evidence for his assertions.

I take this as indicating that even the people who are normally lurkers are getting fed up with Manifesto's rigamarole.

Hank

I've learned a lot here, so interesting discussion. Just don't understand why those who do not believe in LHO as the lone assassin can't just put out the theory of what happened based on the evidence. I'm not knowledgeable like many here, so I would think that manifesto would be trying to persuade me of why he is correct but utilizing a competing theory.

 

[manifesto]

I've learned a lot here, so interesting discussion. Just don't understand why those who do not believe in LHO as the lone assassin can't just put out the theory of what happened based on the evidence. I'm not knowledgeable like many here, so I would think that manifesto would be trying to persuade me of why he is correct but utilizing a competing theory.

So, pointing out flaws in the evidence against Oswald isn’t enough for you? You need another suspect before considering Oswalds innocence?

If so, yes, you belong to the majority in this thread. Is it your primary intention of taking part in the discussion?

To be part of group, damned be science and evidence?

 

[Disbelief]

So, pointing out flaws in the evidence against Oswald isn’t enough for you? You need another suspect before considering Oswalds innocence?

If so, yes, you belong to the majority in this thread. Is it your primary intention of taking part in the discussion?

To be part of group, damned be science and evidence?

That's the thing, your science and evidence is wanting compared to the other evidence presented, and that's what you fail to realize. After this much time, "flaws" are no longer good enough - you have to present something more. In fact, you said that you were capable of doing that.

 

[manifesto]

15 Witnesses to the murder of Tippit

Domingo Benavides

No, he did not identify Oswald as the killer of Tippit:

Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.
Mr. BELIN - Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or both, or neither?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like.
Mr. BELIN - Pardon.
Mr. BENAVIDES - I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every day for a long time there.​

When asked to come in to a lineup the day of the murder, he said that he didn’t see the killer well enough to be able to identify him.

In the WC-testimony above he ”figured” it was Oswalds since he had been in the news for months after the murder as the killer of JFK and Tippit.

A year after his testimony his brother mysteriously got shot to death in a restaurant by an unknown killer. Since he and his brother looked almost identical, Benavides was convinced that he himself was the actual target and that so beceause he wouldn’t identify Oswald as the killer of Tippit.

14 left.

 

[manifesto]

That's the thing, your science and evidence is wanting compared to the other evidence presented, and that's what you fail to realize. After this much time, "flaws" are no longer good enough - you have to present something more. In fact, you said that you were capable of doing that.

What is it in the HSCA scientific acoustical evidence that you find wanting?

Be specific.

(And, I know that you are a member of the Mighty Church since it is a requirement for being accepted as an ”international skeptic” in the first place.)

 

[manifesto]

I can see it approaching the intersection in the Hughes film.

Between the 2 films, the entirety of the intersection is visible.

They synchronize, no matter how ridiculously you flail about trying to insist otherwise. You can't even name a single discrepancy between the positions of the vehicles in the synchronized frames. I've asked you to name what differences you see multiple times, you've punted each time.

No.

You are claiming that car-5 as seen just before Hughes stops filming are starting to turn to the left when approaching the intersection.

In the Z-film you say that you see the same car-5 ”starting to turn” and therefore a common event to sync the two films.

Problem is. You do not know if it is the same ”start to turn” depicted in both films. It could be a second ”start to turn” after a first one seen in the Z-film.

That is, you can’t assume a smooth flow between two points since it is exactly this ”smooth flow” which is the critical unknown.

It is like postulate what is to be proven. That is NOT science, that is teleological sholasticism, with your wishful thinking as the Prime mover.

Present the science.

 

[traxy]

No, he did not identify Oswald as the killer of Tippit

Barbara Davis:

"Today November 22, 1963 shortly after 1:00 pm, my sister-in-law, Virginia Davis, and I were lying on the bed with the kids. I heard a shot and jumped up and heard another shot. I put on my shoes and went to the door and I saw this man walking across my front yard unloading a gun. A woman was standing across the street screaming that "he shot him, he killed him" and pointed towards a police car. That is the first time I noticed a police car there. I ran back in the house and called the operator and reported this to the police. When the police arrived Ishowed [sic] one of them where I saw this man emptying his gun and we found a shell. After the police had left I went back into the yard and Virginia found another shell which I turned over to the police. About 8:00 pm the same day, the police came after me and took me downtown to the city hall where I saw this man in a lineup. The #2 man in a 4-man lineup was the same man I saw in my yard, also the one that was unloading the gun."

Virginia Davis:

"Today November 22, 1963 about 1:30 pm my sister-in-law and myself were lying down in our apartment. My sister-in-law is Jeanette Davis, we live in the same house in different apartments. We heard a shot and then another shot and ran to the side door at Patton Street. I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was unloading his gun. We walked outside and a woman was hollering "he's dead, he's dead, he's shot". This woman told Jeanette to call the Police and she did [sic]. I saw the officer that had been shot lying on Tenth street after Jeanette had called the police. Jeanette found a empty shell [sic] that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police. After the Police had left I found a empty shell [sic] in our yard. This is the same shell I gave to Detective Dhority [sic]. The man that was unloading the gun was the same man I saw tonight as number 2 man in a line up."

William Scoggins:

"Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they was questioning a lot of people and questioning everybody, and they was talking, and so I went back and got on my radio and contacted my supervisor, and they wanted me to come into the office and make a statement, and so I did, the cab company. One of the supervisors got a statement of it, and he asked me did the police, did I give them a statement, and I told him no because, and he said, "Well, why didn't you?"I said, "They didn't ask me. They talked with everybody else."
So the next day they took me down and put me through a lineup, showed me a lineup of four people, and I identified the one that I had seen the day before."

Plus there's the whole "shells and a bullet recovered from Tippit's body match the revolver Oswald was arrested with" thing.

 

[traxy]

Problem is. You do not know if it is the same ”start to turn” depicted in both films. It could be a second ”start to turn” after a first one seen in the Z-film.

I do know it's the same turn. The white SS car doesn't stop mid-turn, and certainly doesn't stop for 2 seconds.

That is, you can’t assume a smooth flow between two points since it is exactly this ”smooth flow” which is the critical unknown.

I sure can.

The blue car immediately in front of the white SS follow up car begins its turn in the Hughes film. It is visible at Z133 making a smooth uninterrupted turn all the way from Houston onto Elm. No stopping. The white SS car is immediately behind the blue car in the Hughes film and remains immediately behind the blue car all the way through the turn onto Elm. No stopping.

You aren't going to be able to find 2 seconds discrepancy, and even if you convince yourself that you have, 2 seconds is not nearly enough time.

 

[manifesto]

Barbara Davis: ....

Before jumping ahead. Do you agree that Benavides did NOT identify Oswald as the killer of Tippit?

 

[traxy]

Before jumping ahead. Do you agree that Benavides did NOT identify Oswald as the killer of Tippit?

I didn't say all 15 of the witnesses I referenced picked Oswald out of a police lineup, but they all witnessed the murder or the immediate aftermath and they all described a man that looked nearly exactly like Oswald. Some of them went so far as to pick him out of a lineup.

The witness statements tracked him leaving the scene headed towards the Texas Theater, and then entering the Texas Theater a couple minutes later. If you're going to say the man fleeing towards the Texas Theater and Oswald entering the Texas Theater a couple minutes later were different people, you have some heavy lifting to do.

Plus there's the revolver...

Keep in mind, Tippit's murder was minutes after Oswald was seen in his rental a couple blocks away. I'm not sure what the odds are on being within a couple blocks of 2 different murders within 45 minutes in 2 different geographical parts of a city, but I'm going to guess they are ASTRONOMICAL.

Plus, Benavides outright says "from the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald."

 

[jeffas69]

No, he did not identify Oswald as the killer of Tippit:

Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.
Mr. BELIN - Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or both, or neither?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like.
Mr. BELIN - Pardon.
Mr. BENAVIDES - I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every day for a long time there.​

When asked to come in to a lineup the day of the murder, he said that he didn’t see the killer well enough to be able to identify him.
In the WC-testimony above he ”figured” it was Oswalds since he had been in the news for months after the murder as the killer of JFK and Tippit.

A year after his testimony his brother mysteriously got shot to death in a restaurant by an unknown killer. Since he and his brother looked almost identical, Benavides was convinced that he himself was the actual target and that so beceause he wouldn’t identify Oswald as the killer of Tippit.

14 left.

That is not what he said. He said this right before where your quotes begin and it is not the same thing.

"these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could. It this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have."

Prior to this he gave a detailed description of the shooter that matched Oswald.

 

[manifesto]

I do know it's the same turn. The white SS car doesn't stop mid-turn, and certainly doesn't stop for 2 seconds.



I sure can.

The blue car immediately in front of the white SS follow up car begins its turn in the Hughes film. It is visible at Z133 making a smooth uninterrupted turn all the way from Houston onto Elm. No stopping. The white SS car is immediately behind the blue car in the Hughes film and remains immediately behind the blue car all the way through the turn onto Elm. No stopping.

You aren't going to be able to find 2 seconds discrepancy, and even if you convince yourself that you have, 2 seconds is not nearly enough time.

Just to be clear. Is it your contention that H-648 sync with Z-150?