Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

[OKBob]

[...] the HSCA acoustic evidence [...]

You agree with this part of the HSCA report, but obviously you don't accept all of it. For example, the HSCA concluded that the FBI was not involved in the assassination, but you say that you suspect Hoover. So, how much of the HSCA, in addition to acoustics, do you accept, and how do you justify cherry-picking its conclusions?

 

[traxy]

No, I do not claim they have been faked. I claim they could have been faked and, yes, it was easy to do this in 1963 without leaving any conclusive evidence of this being done.

An entire panel of experts emphatically says otherwise. Plus there's the matter of Oswald's signature on the back of the deMohrenschild photo.

You're wrong.

 

[Axxman300]

You claimed that Dulles did not have the power and influence in CIA in order to use parts of it in a conspiracy to assassinate his sworn enemy, JFK.

I corrected your fallacy big time.

No, all you've done is spew CT piddling straight out of that Oliver Stone movie.

Dulles didn't have "sworn enemies", he was a grown-up, and a professional. He also served on the Warren Commission at RFK's personal request. Hardly a suspect.

Yes, he was fiercely anti communist and a decorated veteran, but he was more than that evident in his actions as the president of USA. Bay of Pigs. Berlin. Laos. Middle East. Vietnam 1, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam 2, Kongo, Indonesia, Brazil, everywhere an international crisis developed he went against US Security State and took a peaceful stand instead of violent conflict. Consistently. Everytime.

THAT equaled to treason in the minds of the far Right.

His foreign policy made Vietnam possible. Nobody wanted a nuclear war, even the far right, making PAX Americana possible only through the work of the...GASP!...CIA!. All of that stuff you say was evil by the CIA was continued and expanded under JFK.

Well, LBJ lied. He allways lied, even when he didn’t have to. He was a liar, and used the fear of nuclear Holocaust as an effective way of cover up the assassination of his predecessor, JFK.

Fear of nuclear war is a wise thing. He wasn't using it, he was a JFK-CTist just like you, only he saw Russians behind it.

It was a coup d’etat, and LBJ was their principal errand boy.

Again, Oliver Stone, not reality.

1. JFK gets elected to a second term.

2. Hoover gets the boot.

3. Hoover is completely powerless and not able to master any resources to wage a smear campaign on JFK and even if he could, it would amount to nothing more than reflecting badly on those who is behind it, Hoover included.

It was different times. Everybody knew that JFK was womanizer. Nobody talked about. As with LBJ.

4. Recordings and video of JFK with women other than his wife are leaked to the public. One of them is Ellen Rometsch, a Stasi agent. Kennedy is impeached.

Yes I know that your designation of Reality is ”CT Land”. Strange as it is.

CT Land, where the CIA has magic powers. Evidence only counts if it was gathered by delusional people who don't know what they're doing, and work to prove their point of view, and ignore the mountains of evidence that undermines it.

What neighbors? The neighbors in New Orleans? Wrong, they never so him with a rifle, only reading books at the porch.

Weird, I never said New Orleans. You're knee-jerk denial of evidence I didn't present is classic CT.

WC came to the conclusion that it couldn’t possibly be Oswald since he was shown to be at other places with other people when those events took place.

Wait, we're quoting the WC as a reliable source now?

That makes one wonder who it was that tried to impersonate Oswald shooting with italian rifles shortly before the assassination, doesn’t it?

I'll give you a hint: It was Oswald.

Here's another hint: Oswald didn't drive, and if you were actually looking for evidence of a conspiracy you'd be really interested in who his driver was on those days. This is why you fail. If you were serious the shooting range witnesses would be a great place to start. Who was his driver and what did he know? The WC was directed to show Oswald acted alone, and this made the shooting range problematic, which is why they discounted the stories without looking closer.

Maybe it wasn't him, there was a gun shop owner who also owned a Carcano who is said to have resembled Oswald who also sold Oswald his Carcano ammunition. Of course this is just more evidence that Oswald owned the Carcano, and even bought bullets for it meaning that he was doing target practice somewhere else.

Either way, here I have handed you an open avenue that could lead to evidence of a conspiracy, but you've sold your soul to the "Many Gunmen in Dealey Plaza", so you ignore it.

*I don't think whoever drove him to the range would know what Oswald was up to, and if he did he kept his mouth shut for obvious reasons.*

It comes from lots of years at the university

They must be so proud.

and lots of years reading books not sanctioned by US officialdom.

So what you're saying is that all of the JFK Assassination Conspiracy books were all sanctioned by the US government? Good to know. I say that because CT books outnumber non-CT books 10 to 1.

Both. How about you?

Oh all of my sources are CIA, NSA, FBI, NRO. The usual.

 

[manifesto]

You agree with this part of the HSCA report, but obviously you don't accept all of it. For example, the HSCA concluded that the FBI was not involved in the assassination, but you say that you suspect Hoover. So, how much of the HSCA, in addition to acoustics, do you accept, and how do you justify cherry-picking its conclusions?

I agree with Donald Thomas reading of the BBN/W&A joint acoustic investigation and report.

There are other parts of the HSCA investigation who are very good. For example the Lopez report on the subject of Oswald in Mexico City.

 

[smartcooky]

1. The average speed of the motorcade on Main Street?

8.5 to 11mph

2. McLain’s speed on Main Street?

The same speed as the motorcade.

3. The Harley model McLain drove?

1963/64 Harley Davidson Duo-Glide

It doesn't really matter which actual model. All the other early 1960's Harleys (1964 XLH Sportster, 1965 and 1966 Electra-Glide) had the same motor and gearbox.

 

[Major Major]

No, I do not claim they have been faked. I claim they could have been faked and, yes, it was easy to do this in 1963 without leaving any conclusive evidence of this being done.

Juror Number Eight: You are claiming that it is possible that a piece of evidence could be faked, therefore the evidence is fake.

It doesn't work that way. If you claim that it was, in contradiction of the entire panel of experts who say it was impossible, you have to point out how it could have been faked.

It's not enough to say, "It could have happened." If you want to contradict all the evidence (I hadn't known about his signature on the back of the copy given to George DeMorenschildt, but I suppose some would say that he was In On It and the signature could have been faked) you have to provide more persuasive evidence that accords with all the known facts.

Or will there be more on this later?

 

[smartcooky]

You mean like when Gerald Ford moved the wound in the back to the neck? For clarity?

Support this claim with evidence, otherwise, its just another one of your bare assertions.

Done. Scientific evidence.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

I’m not excluding this, no. You are? Why?

No evidence

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

Not lies, truth. You have been outed by Hank, Tomtomkent, BStrong, traxy and others numerous times here trying to unload your burden of proof on others. Denying this is a lie, and doen;t cut it here. There is a record of this throughout the thread

Is it now? How about ”acted at all” for starters? Any evidence for this?

The evidence has been provided endlessly in this thread. The fact that you have refuted, denied and handwaved it away proves this.

Does it now? How does it fits with the majority of witnesses hearing shot/s from the knoll?

Another absolute barefaced lie. The majority of witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard the gunshots come from the TSBD.

Name your best evidence in support of this assertion.

Already done... repeatedly

Pick your best one.

Already done... repeatedly

I do not know who assassinated JFK. I know that there is no evidence of Oswald doing it and I know that most of the so called evidence against him is bogus = he was framed in order to protect the real assassins.

ALL the evidence points to Oswald. You have been repeatedly shown this. You just choose to pretend you haven't.

Everywhere. At the moment I’m debating the acoustic evidence of five shots with the fatal one fired from in fron on the knoll = Oswald was at work in TSBD, behind the limo = Oswald didn’t kill JFK.

Debunked, over and over and over again. Even James Barger admits they got it wrong

When this is properly settled, I’m planning to go over the fabricated chain of evidence allegedly showing that Oswald under he alleged alias, A. Hidell, purchased the alleged murder weapon.

One forgery at a time. Be patient.

I'm not buying into your obfuscation and delaying tactics. Prove it now or STFU

The evidence of fabrication is in the papertrail itself. More on this later.

None of this "more later" crap. Prove it now or shut up!

1. The authenticity of the z-rays and the autopsy photographs, the very few that are left, has to be weighed against all the other evidence telling a completely different story.

2. There are also expertise who with the permission of the Kennedy family have been studying said x-rays and photos and who independently have reached the conclusion that they are forgeries.

More on this later.

None of the "more later" crap. Prove it now or shut up!

No. I claim that this is a possibilty.

Just because you only think its a possibility does not get you out of having to support your claim.

1. The majority of the (asked) witnesses in Dealey Plaza.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

2. The scientific acoustic evidence in the HSCA report.

Debunked over and over. Even James Barger admits this.

3. The witness testimony from almost 50 doctors, nurses, forensic photograpers, z-ray personel body guards and special agents from three hospitals and two federal police/intelligence organisations who observered JFK’s headwounds close up and reported a Big Gaping Whole in the right back of JFK’s head ——> exit wound ——> shot from in front.

Evidence. Explain this using evidence

4. The Zapruder film showing JFK’s head violently snapping back and to the left when hit by the fatal bullet ——> shot from in front to the right.

Nowhere in the Zapruder film is there any evidence that JFK was shot from anywhere but behind.

5. Shall I continue?

I don't care

I claim that I firmely belive he was in on the assassination and I claim he was very active and central in covering it up.

Again, where is the evidence other that your bare assertions. Your firm beliefs are irrelevant. Only evidence counts... where is it?

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

 

[Tomtomkent]

Was Hoover given the boot?
Or did he reach retirement age?

 

[traxy]

I hadn't known about his signature on the back of the copy given to George DeMorenschildt, but I suppose some would say that he was In On It and the signature could have been faked) you have to provide more persuasive evidence that accords with all the known facts.

http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/hscahand.htm

The photo with the signature is item 31 on the list of items they examined. All 3 document examiners came to the same conclusion, the signature on the back of the photo belongs to Oswald.

 

[fibbermcgee]

Just in case it comes up again. Silencers do not make weapons silent. They can cut about 20-30 db off the noise. They can also reduce recoil. When a high powered bullet leaves the barrel it is breaking the sound barrier and is going to be loud. When using a silencer the rule is "always wear ear protection".

 

[OKBob]

[...] He didn’t buy the rifle. FBI fabricated the paper trial in order to connect him to the alleged murder weapon. [...]

Here's the problem. Hank and others present documented evidence that, for example, Oswald purchased and owned the 6th-floor Carcano. Your response to such proffers of evidence is often to say "fabricated" or "possibly fabricated." But you present little or nothing to support your claims of fakery. How can there be a meaningful exchange with you if you allow yourself this easy escape route and refuse even to try to carry your burden of proof regarding fabrication and other matters?

 

[Axxman300]

Was Hoover given the boot?
Or did he reach retirement age?

He was FBI Director for life, appointed by President Calvin Coolidge in 1924, and remained in power until his death in 1977. His influence was so great that while both Truman and JFK considered forcing him out, neither was brave enough to follow through. Even under Nixon nobody on Capital Hill wanted to take Hoover on.

Hoover is why the US has so many laws restricting what law enforcement can do.

That said, in the documents released in October there was a memo where he was worried about how well the DPD could protect Oswald. The last thing he wanted was some other kook killing the suspect before they could get him in a court of law.

Hoover saw communists everywhere. Communists were behind everything: Hollywood, NYTimes, and the Civil Rights Movement.

Just take a look at the actual files he ordered made on celebrities alone:

https://vault.fbi.gov/popular-culture

Oswald was a communist, and if Hoover could have at least linked him to a domestic communist party he would have made that happen, and communists would have been rounded up with cameras rolling. The idea that he was complicit in a conspiracy to frame Oswald as the lone assassin does not jibe with the documented facts.

 

[RoboTimbo]

1. The average speed of the motorcade on Main Street?

2. McLain’s speed on Main Street?

3. The Harley model McLain drove?

Three questions.

Debunked.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The photos were taken of another guy and the superimposed Oswalds head on it.

Why does it matter when the photos were taken?

Debunked. LOL

 

[Axxman300]

Just in case it comes up again. Silencers do not make weapons silent. They can cut about 20-30 db off the noise. They can also reduce recoil. When a high powered bullet leaves the barrel it is breaking the sound barrier and is going to be loud. When using a silencer the rule is "always wear ear protection".

Yup.

And the primary subsonic rounds used by the quieter suppressed weapons (.22, 9mm, and .45) were not used nor found in Dealey Plaza.

Silencers in Dealey Plaza rates in the top three of the dumbest theories related to this case.

 

[bknight]

You mean like when Gerald Ford moved the wound in the back to the neck? For clarity?

Citation for this assertion.

Done. Scientific evidence.

Except the scientific evidence is ties to parameters that can't be proven, therefore the evidence doesn't hold.

I’m not excluding this, no. You are? Why?

Well, that is a damned lie. Why are you lying all the time, smartcooky?

Well, another damned lie. Why are you lying all the time, smartcooky?

Is it now? How about ”acted at all” for starters? Any evidence for this?

Does it now? How does it fits with the majority of witnesses hearing shot/s from the knoll? For starters?

You have been shown that isn't the case, but go right ahead and keep on saying it, although it will still be false.

Explain.

Name your best evidence in support of this assertion.

Pick your best one.

I do not know who assassinated JFK. I know that there is no evidence of Oswald doing it and I know that most of the so called evidence against him is bogus = he was framed in order to protect the real assassins.

Except the evidence points to LHO as the assassin.

Everywhere. At the moment I’m debating the acoustic evidence of five shots with the fatal one fired from in fron on the knoll = Oswald was at work in TSBD, behind the limo = Oswald didn’t kill JFK.

You are beating a dead horse, the stringent requirements that the scientists based the findings are not present, therefore the conclusion was/is wrong.

When this is properly settled, I’m planning to go over the fabricated chain of evidence allegedly showing that Oswald under he alleged alias, A. Hidell, purchased the alleged murder weapon.

This has also been proven to anyone who can read.

One forgery at a time. Be patient.

The evidence of fabrication is in the papertrail itself. More on this later.

1. The authenticity of the z-rays and the autopsy photographs, the very few that are left, has to be weighed against all the other evidence telling a completely different story.

The autopsy is supported by the x-rays and images. One GSW to the head from behind.

2. There are also expertise who with the permission of the Kennedy family have been studying said x-rays and photos and who independently have reached the conclusion that they are forgeries.

Citation for this assertion.

More on this later.

No. I claim that this is a possibilty.

Anything is possible, but not all in probable. You lose.

1. The majority of the (asked) witnesses in Dealey Plaza.

2. The scientific acoustic evidence in the HSCA report.

This has been soundly debunked to almost everyone on the planet.

3. The witness testimony from almost 50 doctors, nurses, forensic photograpers, z-ray personel body guards and special agents from three hospitals and two federal police/intelligence organisations who observered JFK’s headwounds close up and reported a Big Gaping Whole in the right back of JFK’s head ——> exit wound ——> shot from in front.

Citation for this assertion.

4. The Zapruder film showing JFK’s head violently snapping back and to the left when hit by the fatal bullet ——> shot from in front to the right.

Why is there no exit wound on the back of JFK's head?

5. Shall I continue?

I claim that I firmely belive he was in on the assassination and I claim he was very active and central in covering it up.

So, I ask again, why are you lying all the time, smartcooky? Have you no sense of shame?

None?

You are wrong in all of the attempts to declare that history of the assassination is flawed.

 

[smartcooky]

He was FBI Director for life, appointed by President Calvin Coolidge in 1924, and remained in power until his death in 1977. His influence was so great that while both Truman and JFK considered forcing him out, neither was brave enough to follow through. Even under Nixon nobody on Capital Hill wanted to take Hoover on.

Hoover is why the US has so many laws restricting what law enforcement can do.

That said, in the documents released in October there was a memo where he was worried about how well the DPD could protect Oswald. The last thing he wanted was some other kook killing the suspect before they could get him in a court of law.

Hoover saw communists everywhere. Communists were behind everything: Hollywood, NYTimes, and the Civil Rights Movement.

Just take a look at the actual files he ordered made on celebrities alone:

https://vault.fbi.gov/popular-culture

Oswald was a communist, and if Hoover could have at least linked him to a domestic communist party he would have made that happen, and communists would have been rounded up with cameras rolling. The idea that he was complicit in a conspiracy to frame Oswald as the lone assassin does not jibe with the documented facts.

And here's the really important thing.... THEY HAD MOTIVE to link him to a communist assassination plot (Cold War, Cuban Missiles, Bay of Pigs, Soviet involvement in the Vietnam War). If they were able to show for certain that the Cubans had plotted the kill POTUS, it would have been a political goldmine for them. They had been watching Oswald for some time beforehand but they could not make it work.

There may have been Cubans who either knew, or had a very good idea of what he intended to do, but that is not a conspiracy.

 

[cmikes]

He was FBI Director for life, appointed by President Calvin Coolidge in 1924, and remained in power until his death in 1977. His influence was so great that while both Truman and JFK considered forcing him out, neither was brave enough to follow through. Even under Nixon nobody on Capital Hill wanted to take Hoover on.

Hoover is why the US has so many laws restricting what law enforcement can do.

That said, in the documents released in October there was a memo where he was worried about how well the DPD could protect Oswald. The last thing he wanted was some other kook killing the suspect before they could get him in a court of law.

Hoover saw communists everywhere. Communists were behind everything: Hollywood, NYTimes, and the Civil Rights Movement.

Just take a look at the actual files he ordered made on celebrities alone:

https://vault.fbi.gov/popular-culture

Oswald was a communist, and if Hoover could have at least linked him to a domestic communist party he would have made that happen, and communists would have been rounded up with cameras rolling. The idea that he was complicit in a conspiracy to frame Oswald as the lone assassin does not jibe with the documented facts.

Any conspiracy theory that involves J. Edgar Hoover is a non-starter almost by definition. Why would Hoover risk being arrested and executed (Texas had and used the death penalty at the time) by joining a conspiracy to kill JFK when Hoover could have ended Kennedy's presidency at any time he wished? Not just the threat to his freedom and life, but also the threat to his reputation that he had spent a lifetime building and jealousy guarded? Hoover had a file on the Kennedy family as thick as a bible dating back to the Prohibition era, why wouldn't he just release the smallest part of his file and have Kennedy impeached, or threaten to and have Kennedy resign or not run for reelection?

 

[HSienzant]

It is an ancient trick to use a patsy in order to ”through the public off”, to take the blame for the real assassins.

Cite three times this was historically used prior to the Kennedy assassination. Or should we expect "more on this later" - your new handwaving tactic.

Oswald was an almost perfect choice.

Almost like he actually committed the assassination, right?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

It was his shot gun he owned in Minsk and he held it with his both hands over the head.

Evidence for this? Got any?

He sold the shot gun before traveling back to the US.

Evidence for this? Got any?

I believe him. You are saying he was lying?

Nobody cares what you believe. The coin of the realm here is evidence. Got any?

He was a member in a Minsk hunting club and there were photos taken of him with his shot gun.

Evidence for this? Got any?

Yes, Hank, I can debate only a limited subjects at a time.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

Hank