Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

[toto]

I think people make the common mistake of assuming a woman who likes to wear sexy clothes is somehow more 'available', than ones who don't. It is not helped by the fact prostitutes dress as sexily as they can to solicit custom.

Thus a lot of the anger about being labelled a 'slut' because of wearing revealing clothing is to do with the concommittant assumption you have loose morals. Indeed, I am sure many women who could be labelled sluts, in the sense of being immodest in clothing were also generous in their sexual favours. Hence you get jealous boyfriends and husbands telling their female partners to 'cover up'.

I don't see that a woman who dresses in a sexy way is necessarily at all promiscuous. Being promiscuous is completely different.

Can I pin you down on the fact that "Slut" is an English word, correctly used when describing a woman of loose morals, if we agree that a less used definition is "slovenly".? A simple "yes, ok" would be fine!

 

[LondonJohn]

No. The educated represent about 20%. Ask an educated person who went to a decent school and read English literature, and I guarantee most can provide you with the correct meaning of 'slut'. Likewise, 'gay' or 'queer'.

Let's examine what you define as the "correct meaning" of words. See, there's only one appropriate definition: the "correct meaning" of a word is whatever the word is understood to mean by any sizeable constituency at any given point in time.

I'd love, for example, to know what you thing the "correct meaning" of "gay" is in the UK in 2018. If you say its "correct meaning" is something along the lines of "happy", then I'll tell you you don't know what you're talking about. Rather, the word "gay" has several accepted meanings/definitions/usages in the UK in 2018. One of which is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, related to homosexuality. And likewise, one of the "correct meanings" of "slut" in the UK in 2018 - indeed, the primary meaning of the word in the UK in 2018 - is "person of loose sexual morals".

(Oh and by the way, I most definitely fall into those lofty categories you condescendingly single out as the only group who know the "correct meaning" of words. And I know the primary correct meaning of "slut". You apparently do not.)

 

[Stacyhs]

I think people make the common mistake of assuming a woman who likes to wear sexy clothes is somehow more 'available', than ones who don't. It is not helped by the fact prostitutes dress as sexily as they can to solicit custom.

Thus a lot of the anger about being labelled a 'slut' because of wearing revealing clothing is to do with the concommittant assumption you have loose morals. Indeed, I am sure many women who could be labelled sluts, in the sense of being immodest in clothing were also generous in their sexual favours. Hence you get jealous boyfriends and husbands telling their female partners to 'cover up'.

I don't see that a woman who dresses in a sexy way is necessarily at all promiscuous. Being promiscuous is completely different.

Something we can finally agree on. It's logical for the word 'slut' to have progressed from meaning 'slovenly' to meaning what it's commonly used for today.

But that still doesn't change the fact that 'slut' is commonly used in the UK in the same way it's used in the US. Nor does it change the fact that Knox has been called a 'slut' innumerable times by the PGP. Anyone reading the comments section in articles starting in 2008 would be well aware of that.

 

[Bill Williams]

The Star and the Express?

As for the school teacher who sent her pupil lover a text, 'who can I be a slut with' (or similar), she clearly didn't see 'slut' as a derogatory term.

A 'slag' would be.

As for Girls Aloud, they are clearly adopting an Americanism. 'Slutty' would be the correct term describe their slovenly clothing, but it wouldn't refer to their sleeping around.

Bizarre, bizarre post. But what can you do?

 

[Numbers]

Slag:
2British derogatory, informal: A woman who has many casual sexual encounters or relationships.

Source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/slag

Slag:
UK slang offensive an insulting word for a woman who has had a lot of sexual partners

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/slag

slag
noun
Definition of slag
slang, chiefly British
: a lewd or promiscuous woman

First Known Use: circa 1958
in the meaning defined above

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slag

Definition of slut
1 disparaging + offensive : a promiscuous woman : a woman who has many sexual partners
2 dated
a chiefly British, disparaging : an unclean or slovenly woman : slattern
b : an impudent girl : minx

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slut

slut
noun
derogatory
1A woman who has many casual sexual partners.

2dated A woman with low standards of cleanliness.

Source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/slut

"Slut-shaming is the practice of criticizing people, especially women and girls, who are perceived to violate expectations of behavior and appearance regarding issues related to sexuality."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming
____
Comments: "slag" as a synonym for "slut" in the UK is a relatively recent meaning, dating from about 1958. "Slut" is an older word (dating to Middle English, according to the Oxford Dictionary), and is understood in the US and the UK to mean a promiscuous woman (in its first sense) or an unkempt or slovenly woman (in its second sense, considered dated).

"Slut-shaming" is a concept that is well defined, see the Wikipedia article and its many references.

Those are the objective facts in terms of how these English words are used and understood.

Lacking a coherent and valid argument, guilters will try to divert the discussion to irrelevancies.

 

[Stacyhs]

Slag:
2British derogatory, informal: A woman who has many casual sexual encounters or relationships.

Source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/slag

Slag:
UK slang offensive an insulting word for a woman who has had a lot of sexual partners

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/slag

slag
noun
Definition of slag
slang, chiefly British
: a lewd or promiscuous woman

First Known Use: circa 1958
in the meaning defined above

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slag

Definition of slut
1 disparaging + offensive : a promiscuous woman : a woman who has many sexual partners
2 dated
a chiefly British, disparaging : an unclean or slovenly woman : slattern
b : an impudent girl : minx

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slut

slut
noun
derogatory
1A woman who has many casual sexual partners.

2dated A woman with low standards of cleanliness.

Source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/slut

"Slut-shaming is the practice of criticizing people, especially women and girls, who are perceived to violate expectations of behavior and appearance regarding issues related to sexuality."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming
____
Comments: "slag" as a synonym for "slut" in the UK is a relatively recent meaning, dating from about 1958. "Slut" is an older word (dating to Middle English, according to the Oxford Dictionary), and is understood in the US and the UK to mean a promiscuous woman (in its first sense) or an unkempt or slovenly woman (in its second sense, considered dated).

"Slut-shaming" is a concept that is well defined, see the Wikipedia article and its many references.

Those are the objective facts in terms of how these English words are used and understood.

Lacking a coherent and valid argument, guilters will try to divert the discussion to irrelevancies.

Oh, dear. I see you referenced Merriam-Webster. Vixen considers it an inferior dictionary. That it is American might have something to do with it because, not being British, it can never measure up to her high standards.

 

[Planigale]

It wasn't you or Knox who sexualised the word, that is for sure! It was my mammoth dictionary I was quoting from (which includes a quotation from Dickens) but the compact OED has the sexual definition as clearly the no.1 definition. I would surmise that most Brits would use this definition first.

As someone brought up In England, all my life 'slut' has had the connotation of being a woman of loose sexual morals i.e. being easy. I have known there is a historical use of being slovenly, a poor housekeeper, but I have never heard it being used in this sense. Slutty refers to being over made-up usually in a short skirt (viz Friday night in Newcastle); it can also refer to getting drunk and making out, you don't have to follow through to be slutty. Interestingly I would associate sluttish with being untidy, not as having a sexual connotation.

 

[Planigale]

No. In England, the word is, 'slag'.

Slag has different connotations; a slag is a cheap whore. Calling a woman a slag is more deliberately insulting than calling her a slut. Girls might want to recognise their inner slut, (which would mean their sexual self), you would never have an inner slag. Your girl friend might say in an entirely friendly way 'OMG you were such a slut last night', but saying you were a slag would end a friendship.

 

[toto]

As someone brought up In England, all my life 'slut' has had the connotation of being a woman of loose sexual morals i.e. being easy. I have known there is a historical use of being slovenly, a poor housekeeper, but I have never heard it being used in this sense. Slutty refers to being over made-up usually in a short skirt (viz Friday night in Newcastle); it can also refer to getting drunk and making out, you don't have to follow through to be slutty. Interestingly I would associate sluttish with being untidy, not as having a sexual connotation.

I don't disagree with this or your following post, and I do not think Vixen would either, but Vixen's original point was that the word "slut" was essentially American. (Well it was a bit more personal than that, but I am overlooking the rhetoric).

 

[Vixen]

ROTFLMAO! Good writers don't do that? Then Charles Dickens is not a good writer under your definition:


https://www.livescience.com/18864-slut-limbaugh-controversy.html

So much for your other claim that its use as a derogatory word for a loose woman is from modern mass media.

Why can't you just admit for once you were wrong and stop this pitiful nonsense?

LOL. A good writer will depict colloquial speech accurately, thus Charles Dickens having one of his characters speak in the vernacular, does not mean he himself will do so, except as a literary device.

 

[Vixen]

Can I pin you down on the fact that "Slut" is an English word, correctly used when describing a woman of loose morals, if we agree that a less used definition is "slovenly".? A simple "yes, ok" would be fine!

I don't agree it is less used at all. Just because it has been appropriated by low-grade social media doesn't detract from the educated meaning.

In my circles it is normal to jokingly call a friend 'you slut' for still being in a dressing gown and slippers, a nod to the sexist nature of the term when there is no equivalent term to a male being lounging around in a similar fashion.

A dear late friend of mine of the previous generation was active in the feminist magazine and collective SPARE RIB. One of their jokey post cards, t-shirts and mugs reclaimed the 'slut' meme. It was seen as wildly funny that women who didn't care for housework were labelled as 'sluts', when men were not.

 

[Vixen]

Let's examine what you define as the "correct meaning" of words. See, there's only one appropriate definition: the "correct meaning" of a word is whatever the word is understood to mean by any sizeable constituency at any given point in time.

I'd love, for example, to know what you thing the "correct meaning" of "gay" is in the UK in 2018. If you say its "correct meaning" is something along the lines of "happy", then I'll tell you you don't know what you're talking about. Rather, the word "gay" has several accepted meanings/definitions/usages in the UK in 2018. One of which is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, related to homosexuality. And likewise, one of the "correct meanings" of "slut" in the UK in 2018 - indeed, the primary meaning of the word in the UK in 2018 - is "person of loose sexual morals".

(Oh and by the way, I most definitely fall into those lofty categories you condescendingly single out as the only group who know the "correct meaning" of words. And I know the primary correct meaning of "slut". You apparently do not.)

Not even just the UK. I am sure millions of Australian children still sing the line, 'gay your life must be' when singing of kookaburras sitting in an old gum tree. And 'merry', as in, 'merry, merry king of the bush is he-eee'. (Not as in 'homosexual' or 'drunk'.)

My English teachers at school were creme de la creme Oxbridge dons. One was a mentor of a famous Shakespearean actor. <snip>

 

[Vixen]

Something we can finally agree on. It's logical for the word 'slut' to have progressed from meaning 'slovenly' to meaning what it's commonly used for today.

But that still doesn't change the fact that 'slut' is commonly used in the UK in the same way it's used in the US. Nor does it change the fact that Knox has been called a 'slut' innumerable times by the PGP. Anyone reading the comments section in articles starting in 2008 would be well aware of that.

That is bollocks. Knox is the one to draw attention to her sexploits, like she invented it. Who cares. All the stuff about Monica Lewinksi and Stormy Daniels is boring news. Get a life, please.

 

[Vixen]

Slag has different connotations; a slag is a cheap whore. Calling a woman a slag is more deliberately insulting than calling her a slut. Girls might want to recognise their inner slut, (which would mean their sexual self), you would never have an inner slag. Your girl friend might say in an entirely friendly way 'OMG you were such a slut last night', but saying you were a slag would end a friendship.

Exactly.

 

[Vixen]

I don't disagree with this or your following post, and I do not think Vixen would either, but Vixen's original point was that the word "slut" was essentially American. (Well it was a bit more personal than that, but I am overlooking the rhetoric).

No, you were the one who said it was early American 1450 (or something). 'Slut' is a word that has been around for donkeys years. It is a good strong anglo-saxon word that conveys wonderfully a sense of insult, like many other four-letter words.

It is sad it has been misappropriated by criminals trying to claim victimhood.

 

[toto]

As you have been told on more than one occasion, in in the UK a 'slut' is someone who is slovenly at housework.

You and Knox are the ones who have sexualised the word.

If I have not made myself clear then perhaps I can have another go. There is more than one definition of the word "slut". I have referenced a 16000 page edition of the O.E.D. to point out that two definitions go back at least to the 1400's. I got the impression that you thought that the "hussy" definition mainly originated from America; the reference to an American poster (I think) and the American Knox was the basis for my assumption. You have expanded on that to suggest that the ill educated mass media for example in England use the word wrongly.

I have quoted from English Novelists from the 18th and 19th century to prove you are wrong. There are more quotations I could provide if you want me to. You are welcome to tell me where you think I have made a factual error. I think I have been very fair to the points you have made.

 

[toto]

No, you were the one who said it was early American 1450 (or something). 'Slut' is a word that has been around for donkeys years. It is a good strong anglo-saxon word that conveys wonderfully a sense of insult, like many other four-letter words.

It is sad it has been misappropriated by criminals trying to claim victimhood.

Just to add: I was quoting the OED to prove the word and the definitions under discussion did NOT originate in America.

 

[Numbers]

Oh, dear. I see you referenced Merriam-Webster. Vixen considers it an inferior dictionary. That it is American might have something to do with it because, not being British, it can never measure up to her high standards.

What I notice is that the discussion has been diverted to focus on the linguistics of "slut" and "slag".

The relevant topic is, in my opinion, slut-shaming (has anyone ever used the phrase "slag-shaming"?) and misogyny as used against Amanda Knox by the guilters and originally by the Italian authorities and tabloid media.

Whether or not a particular guilter has used the word "slut" to criticize Knox is besides the point; the point is the substantive content of the malicious and misogynistic criticism. It is a guilter trick to divert a discussion from substantive issues to formalism and linguistic arguments.

The slut-shaming against Knox by the guilters is obvious and has its roots in the attacks against Knox - character assassination - by the Italian authorities. I am reminded of the statement in Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi's book Monster of Florence, that when the Italian authorities launch a criminal case against someone, their aim is not only to pursue criminal charges but also to destroy the life and reputation of the accused.

 

[Vixen]

If I have not made myself clear then perhaps I can have another go. There is more than one definition of the word "slut". I have referenced a 16000 page edition of the O.E.D. to point out that two definitions go back at least to the 1400's. I got the impression that you thought that the "hussy" definition mainly originated from America; the reference to an American poster (I think) and the American Knox was the basis for my assumption. You have expanded on that to suggest that the ill educated mass media for example in England use the word wrongly.

I have quoted from English Novelists from the 18th and 19th century to prove you are wrong. There are more quotations I could provide if you want me to. You are welcome to tell me where you think I have made a factual error. I think I have been very fair to the points you have made.

Yes, I do think 'slut' has come into fashion in recent times to have more of a meaning of 'promiscuous' than slovenly. Yes there is a crossover of the 'slatternly' meaning with 'easy lay'. The new meaning as espoused by Knox and chums appears to be 'easy lay' only.

 

[Vixen]

Just to add: I was quoting the OED to prove the word and the definitions under discussion did NOT originate in America.

It is true that many so-called Americanisms, actually go back to the days when America was first colonised by the English, so in effect, are more correct than some modern English terms. For example, the use of 'z' instead of 's' in words such as 'realize' or idealize' is more correct (being derived from Greek) than the UK versions, which have been 'french-ified', if you like.

So, there was an overlapping meaning of being of easy virtue, in 'slut', extrapolating from not being of proper attire or tidiness, which some lascivious men found sexually attractive. However, it did not exclusively mean, 'promiscuous'.