Ed Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday

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Not very significant. Just a procedural decision that issue will be decided in criminal case. Still the issue looks completely bogus and it seems very unlikely manafort will prevail there. I don't know why manafort is pursuing this line. Is he playing for time? Does Manafort have any way out? He may not have enough to trade to get much of a deal. He lost the prisoner's dilemma game with Gates and it looks like he may not have much left to decide beyond which prison he is going to spend most of the rest of his life in
 
Not very significant. Just a procedural decision that issue will be decided in criminal case. Still the issue looks completely bogus and it seems very unlikely manafort will prevail there. I don't know why manafort is pursuing this line. Is he playing for time? Does Manafort have any way out? He may not have enough to trade to get much of a deal. He lost the prisoner's dilemma game with Gates and it looks like he may not have much left to decide beyond which prison he is going to spend most of the rest of his life in

Surely, if convicted he'll get a Presidential pardon with not a day served :confused:
 
According to Comey, Priebus was in the meeting one of the times Trump told the lie to Comey. If Priebus corroborates Comey, I'm not so sure it can be waved away that easily.
That's interesting. I don't think it would be enough to push republicans to abandon Trump though. I can already imagine how Fox News and the Republicans would spin this.

I think if Trump is going to get brought down it will be with unequivocal proof of significant criminal activity like money laundering or other serious crimes.
 
Surely, if convicted he'll get a Presidential pardon with not a day served :confused:
There seems to be overwhelming evidence of bank fraud against Manafort. New York could prosecute him for that in a second after a pardon plus pardon for this kind of thing could put Trump in difficult situation. Would Fox News stand by him if he goes down this path?
 
There seems to be overwhelming evidence of bank fraud against Manafort. New York could prosecute him for that in a second after a pardon plus pardon for this kind of thing could put Trump in difficult situation. Would Fox News stand by him if he goes down this path?

Of course. Trump will claim it's fake evidence and a witch hunt - which also gives him a reason for the pardon (a miscarriage of justice) - FoxNews will eat it up because it plays to their deep-state narrative. :(
 
That's interesting. I don't think it would be enough to push republicans to abandon Trump though. I can already imagine how Fox News and the Republicans would spin this.

I think if Trump is going to get brought down it will be with unequivocal proof of significant criminal activity like money laundering or other serious crimes.


Unequivocal proof will always equal "fake news" to Trump supporters.

That's all they need to disregard anything at all.

Either it isn't important or it was made up by Trump's enemies. That pretty much covers everything.
 
That's interesting. I don't think it would be enough to push republicans to abandon Trump though. I can already imagine how Fox News and the Republicans would spin this.

I think if Trump is going to get brought down it will be with unequivocal proof of significant criminal activity like money laundering or other serious crimes.

If only that could be trusted these days. Chances are far too high that all we would really get would be "But ClintonClintonClintonClintonClintonClintonClinton!" out of the Republicans instead, though, given far too many of them. Add in a side dish for Deep State conspiracy and deep and loud moral outrage at Trump that doesn't change their vote because Democrats are agents of the devil and Trump was doing a fine job of keeping all those Muslim terrorists and Mexican rapists out.
 
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If only that could be trusted these days. Chances are far too high that all we would really get would be "But ClintonClintonClintonClintonClintonClintonClinton!" out of the Republicans instead, though, given far too many of them. Add in a side dish for Deep State conspiracy and deep and loud moral outrage at Trump that doesn't change their vote because Democrats are agents of the devil and Trump was doing a fine job of keeping all those Muslim terrorists and Mexican rapists out.

This is true now, but not necessarily true under all circumstances. There is a point when Republican leadership and Fox News will no longer judge it in their interest to prop up a corrupt, incompetent wildly dishonest president with the mental outlook of a puffed up ten year old filled with fantasies of his self importance. The questions are what is this point and will it be reached.

I don't know the answer but for most of Trump's administration I've thought that it was more likely than not that he would finish his term. Many things have nudged my estimate of the chances that Trump would finish his term downwards but the Cohen raids were enough to make me think it is now more likely than not that Trump will be out before his term is over.

I think it is worthy of note, that Fox is hedging their bets already with regard to Trump. Anti-Trump stories and opinion pieces have been allowed to seep in around the edges of Fox News coverage.
 
This is true now, but not necessarily true under all circumstances. There is a point when Republican leadership and Fox News will no longer judge it in their interest to prop up a corrupt, incompetent wildly dishonest president with the mental outlook of a puffed up ten year old filled with fantasies of his self importance. The questions are what is this point and will it be reached.

I don't know the answer but for most of Trump's administration I've thought that it was more likely than not that he would finish his term. Many things have nudged my estimate of the chances that Trump would finish his term downwards but the Cohen raids were enough to make me think it is now more likely than not that Trump will be out before his term is over.

I think it is worthy of note, that Fox is hedging their bets already with regard to Trump. Anti-Trump stories and opinion pieces have been allowed to seep in around the edges of Fox News coverage.

I disagree. The GOP will continue to support him regardless. They can continue to do their thing of lowering taxes, enriching themselves and removing worker and environmental protections. For most the only barrier to re-election is being primaried by someone more extreme and/or Trumpist.

If he chooses to stand I think President Trump has at least a 50/50 chance of being reelected and serving two full terms and by then, he will be the new normal for a US President. :(
 
This is true now, but not necessarily true under all circumstances. There is a point when Republican leadership and Fox News will no longer judge it in their interest to prop up a corrupt, incompetent wildly dishonest president with the mental outlook of a puffed up ten year old filled with fantasies of his self importance. The questions are what is this point and will it be reached.

I don't know the answer but for most of Trump's administration I've thought that it was more likely than not that he would finish his term. Many things have nudged my estimate of the chances that Trump would finish his term downwards but the Cohen raids were enough to make me think it is now more likely than not that Trump will be out before his term is over.

I think it is worthy of note, that Fox is hedging their bets already with regard to Trump. Anti-Trump stories and opinion pieces have been allowed to seep in around the edges of Fox News coverage.

I think there will be a tipping point.

At the moment it's worse for their base to attack Trump, but there are going to be nuggets leaking into the echo chamber - and the possible Trump abortion payments might disenchant a fair number.

Eventually, the GOP Representatives and Senators will judge that he's more of an electoral liability than a benefit and then they'll jump ship - probably whilst claiming that they couldn't have realised that he was so bad before.
 
I disagree....:(

I think our disagreement is more a disagreement about the odds than an absolute disagreement. This is more specifically what I believe with regard to the chances that Trump will not serve out his full term:
1. Health - Trump is probably less healthy than all of the presidents of my life with the possible exception of Lyndon Johnson. There is a reasonable chance that he will need to resign for health reasons or will be shoved out for health reasons.

2. Mental issues - Trump is mentally unstable. Obviously the Republicans are ignoring this or even hiding it right now but he may reach the point where the Republicans would act to end his presidency for this.

3. Crimes not associated with the election before his election - Trump has committed various kinds of fraud throughout his career. After the collapse of his casinos it appears that he stayed afloat with Russian involvement. It seems likely that there was illegal activity associated with this and that it is possible that this will unravel and be enough to force him out. It could even provide the mechanism for it as part of a Spiro Agnew type agreement where he makes a deal where he avoids jail time if he resigns.

4. Crimes associated with the election - We just don't know how likely it is that Trump will be brought down by this. Lots of people near him were breaking laws but it is a big step from getting the underlings convicted to using that information to remove a still politically powerful president. The Cohen raids may play a role in pushing this forward and they may play a role in pushing before the elections crime investigation and prosecution forward.

5. Crimes while Trump is in office - Obstruction of justice may be the most important. I have no doubt that he is guilty of obstruction of justice, but the political reality is that it is long way from what davefoc thinks he knows to forcing Trump out because of it. Not only are there questions about what his motivations were with regard to the questionable actions, there is the issue that regardless of what his motivations were he had the right to do it. Trump would clearly cross a line if he was shown to be offering pardons for silence. And one of his lawyers seems to have done that but I don't expect that to do Trump in. There are also all the various ways Trump is ripping off the US with the abuse of his office to enrich his enterprises. However, the Republicans have accepted this and it is hard to see how Trump will be held accountable for this. There is also the possibility that a nexus will be found between Trump's decision making with regard to Russia and conflicts of interest Trump has with regard to Russian.

For me the total of all the possibilities above is greater than 50%. Perhaps for you the total is substantially less but unless it is zero our disagreement is not absolute.

The possibility that any of these items will undo Trump are made more likely by various facts that work in the Democrats favor and may lead to Democratic gains. If Democrats get control of the legislature the chances of real investigations into various Trump shenanigans will skyrocket and Trump may be seriously impacted by this.
1. Reduced impact of gerrymandering - it looks like the long term trend is to reduce the effect of gerrymandering which has mostly worked in Republican favor. This makes it more likely that Democrats will be elected.
2. Changing demographics - Trump's main base of support is centered on older voters. They are gradually aging out
3. Trump's tax plan - A tax plan aimed so squarely at making rich people richer is a political liability. The accompanying massive deficits are also a political liability
4. Trump's trade wars - These may be enough to have had negative consequences by the time of the next election and even if they haven't the reality that trade wars will be bad for the US seems to be dawning on the effected people.
5. The corruption of Trump's administration - Scott Pruitt will be a gift that keeps on giving for the Democrats, but the overall corruption of Trump and various members of his administration is a significant political liability.
6. A lot of Republican legislators have already decided not to run thus eliminating the incumbent advantage for Republicans in those districts.
 
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The double standards of the Mueller investigation

By charging former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn for lying to the FBI, Mueller emphasized that even the appearance of false testimony is felonious behavior.

If that is so, then the DOJ will likely have to charge former Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe with perjury or related offenses. Former FBI Director James Comey may also have lied to Congress.

Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper and former CIA Director John Brennan lied under oath to Congress on matters related to surveillance.

Clinton aides Cheryl Mills and Huma Abedin likely lied when they told FBI investigators they had no idea that their then-boss, Hillary Clinton, was using an illegal private email server.

High-ranking Obama administration officials may also be subject to indictments, given that they may have requested the “unmasking” of American citizens.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...mey-huma-abedin-investigation-0430-story.html (April 30, 2018)


Kudos to Bob Mueller. Thank you sir!
 
Why not try to address the facts posted?

Is it Meuller's job to investigate or prosecute McCabe? Whose job do you think it is and is it being done?

Flynn is a cooperating witness. Has it occurred to you that he and/or his son could have been charged with more than he was if he wasn't cooperating?
 
I think there will be a tipping point.

At the moment it's worse for their base to attack Trump, but there are going to be nuggets leaking into the echo chamber - and the possible Trump abortion payments might disenchant a fair number.

Eventually, the GOP Representatives and Senators will judge that he's more of an electoral liability than a benefit and then they'll jump ship - probably whilst claiming that they couldn't have realised that he was so bad before.

I think so too, but I am far from sure. Fox News did not exist during the Nixon years. I think if it had there is a reasonable chance that Nixon would have lasted out his term. I think that the rise of Fox News is new territory for a democracy and it is not clear how this plays out. Obviously we have had partisan newspapers and partisan (especially right wing) radio shows for a very long time. Fox News is something different. It is television highly focused on promoting a partisan agenda with little regard for truth or introspection. Many of the Fox News personalities would never have been given a voice on television in years gone by when available bandwidth led to mosyly non-partisan stations.

Perhaps I am over sensitive to this phenomena because I see how it affects the political outlook of my father. All of a sudden he's telling me that he thinks Putin is more of a patriot than Obama. Huh? What the hell? Putin is starting illegal wars, crashing the Russian economy, messing about it Syria for reasons that seem even more inhumane than Cheney's justifications for messing about in Iraq and he is to be more admired than Obama?. The fact seems to be that telling people lies they want to hear can not only get somebody elected president it can be a very lucrative way to run a television network and we just don't know what the synergy between the two is going to produce.
 
Why not try to address the facts posted?

Can you please point out the facts in the quote below and provide convincing evidence for them.

"The double standards of the Mueller investigation

By charging former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn for lying to the FBI, Mueller emphasized that even the appearance of false testimony is felonious behavior.
If that is so, then the DOJ will likely have to charge former Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe with perjury or related offenses. Former FBI Director James Comey may also have lied to Congress.

Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper and former CIA Director John Brennan lied under oath to Congress on matters related to surveillance.

Clinton aides Cheryl Mills and Huma Abedin likely lied when they told FBI investigators they had no idea that their then-boss, Hillary Clinton, was using an illegal private email server.

High-ranking Obama administration officials may also be subject to indictments, given that they may have requested the “unmasking” of American citizens.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...430-story.html (April 30, 2018)"
 
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