Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[tyr_13]

No I checked the first two, found that they are both scientifically invalid (as in, they are set up so that it is literally impossible for them to support your claim), and stopped.

Stop right there; they were scientifically valid. They simply were not focused only on suicide rates. The two you looked at specifically were on quality of life changes, which includes suicidal thought and idealization rates.

Then show one that actually supports your claim. It's not my job to wade through dozens of invalid studies to maybe find one that actually supports your claim.



Again, no. Here is the methodology of those first two studies: A group N of people have transitioned, later on a subset K of N is then chosen based on 1. not having died from suicide (or anything else) in the meantime and 2. still happy and willing to cooperate with the medical team. This subset K then, unsurprisingly, expresses mostly positive results and a lack of deaths from suicide.

The way those studies select their samples makes them simply invalid scientifically, and that has nothing to do with how many transgender people there are in the general population. These problems are noted extensively in the Medicare literature overview I linked to earlier, by the way.



The study itself obviously doesn't. And if your appeals to the author are based on that interview on the advocacy site, I've checked some of the studies linked to which are presented as a counter, and they are just as methodologically invalid as those others you linked to.

The study does, and your well poisoning attempt is funny because it poisons your own source as well.

It is, as far as I've seen, the only study which doesn't explicitly exclude from consideration those post-transition people who have died from suicide. If you can't see how excluding deaths from suicide in studies purporting to support lowered suicidality simply invalidates them then I don't really know what to tell you.

The study you cite wasn't addressing comprehensive transitioning. I see a pattern. There is no point discussing this with you when you're going to continually misrepresent or misinterpret studies as showing things they aren't even trying to.

I'll continue to side with the actual authority.

 

[tyr_13]

You all do know that trans men also exist right? It isn't all about the women.

 

[tyr_13]

Girl Guide guidelines say that boys who want to be girls must be allowed to sleep in the girls' dorms/tents and the parents of the girls are not to be informed about this. There is currently a big protest underway against this development as it is in breach of safeguarding principles. The organisation involved is called something like "Friends to all Guides" if you want to look into it further.

Autogynaephilia is only disputed by autogynaephiles and their fellow-travellers who are in denial. To be fair, there's a hell of a lot of denial going on in that quarter.




Nice smear. Read again. I'm pointing out that the way the procedures are being operated is an engraved invitation to any bolshie adolescent boy who thinks it would be a great lark to say he identifies as a girl, get all the adulation and fawning that come to these "brave, authentic" boys, and get access to the girls' dorms as well. That is most certainly not saying that trans = pervert.

Should they be informed if any of the girls are lesbians?

Yes, some trans people are creeps or perverts, but you treat them as any other creep or pervert. It works as well as with other cis creeps.

 

[Rolfe]

As a skeptic, I'm just going to take your word as gospel here. No need to point to any specific statute or case law, just sort of wave your hands and assert that a legal right exists somewhere in Britain.

I edited the post.

 

[Rolfe]

Should they be informed if any of the girls are lesbians?

Yes, some trans people are creeps or perverts, but you treat them as any other creep or pervert. It works as well as with other cis creeps.

This is about male-sexed bodies, not sexual orientation. Girls and women include lesbians and always have and there is not a problem with that.

You are completely ignoring the particular point I'm making which is that any adolescent boy with a fancy to sleep in the girls' dorm and who thinks it would be a great wheeze just to say he's a girl and get all the adulation that comes with that, can just do it. I've met plenty pushy, rebellious adolescent boys I'd absolutely believe might be up for that particular "laugh".

 

[Rolfe]

You all do know that trans men also exist right? It isn't all about the women.

Yeah, funny that, isn't it. Funny how the people who grew up as girls and were socialised into a feminine role are practically never heard from in all this.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

 

[tyr_13]

This is about male-sexed bodies, not sexual orientation. Girls and women include lesbians and always have and there is not a problem with that.

You are completely ignoring the particular point I'm making which is that any adolescent boy with a fancy to sleep in the girls' dorm and who thinks it would be a great wheeze just to say he's a girl and get all the adulation that comes with that, can just do it. I've met plenty pushy, rebellious adolescent boys I'd absolutely believe might be up for that particular "laugh".

In other words, men behave badly because of how they are socialized, so anyone socialized that way has to be kept out of women's spaces.

Like, country girls?

Yeah, funny that, isn't it. Funny how the people who grew up as girls and were socialised into a feminine role are practically never heard from in all this.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

Sorry, not clicking on mumsnet again. This weekend I had dinner with a party that included a trans man and a trans woman. One young, one in their 30's. One very active in trans issues, the other just trying to exist. They know why trans men get ignored.

It's sexism. Protect the women, men are bad/wrong. It's the perfect storm that gets misandrists and misogynists to agree. No, not everyone with those concerns is, but those are the driving, underlying, social forces that make the conversation all about trans women and women's spaces. It's the reason 'TERF' is a slur to so many feminists.

The weekend before that the same trans woman helped me deal with another trans woman who sexually harassed one of my trans friends' friend. It was exactly like dealing with other creeps.

The way forward is by continuing the commitment to make the bad actions not only punishable, but punished. To socialize these behaviors out. Not to keep holding onto yesterday's victories that have become less impactful as society has changed. That might mean that fighting for women's bathrooms was the right thing to do then, and is an accomplishment, but that now it's the right thing to let them go.

 

[Rolfe]

If you are concerned for the safety and happiness of trans friends who (like most trans people) are simply trying to get by and hope to be accepted for what they are, you should be very concerned indeed by the antics of the trans rights activists, who are busy poisoning that particular well by insisting that hairy bearded blokes have every right to demand to be recognised as absolutely identical in every way to women who were born as girls and have lived their entire lives in their natal sex.

And if you seriously think you can socialise aggression out of men, after God alone knows how many millennia, I think you're in for a disappointment.

And once again I note that a man is telling women that their hard-won rights don't matter and they will just be "let go". Not your call to make, guys.

 

[Strawberry]

If you are concerned for the safety and happiness of trans friends who (like most trans people) are simply trying to get by and hope to be accepted for what they are, you should be very concerned indeed by the antics of the trans rights activists, who are busy poisoning that particular well by insisting that hairy bearded blokes have every right to demand to be recognised as absolutely identical in every way to women who were born as girls and have lived their entire lives in their natal sex.

And if you seriously think you can socialise aggression out of men, after God alone knows how many millennia, I think you're in for a disappointment.

And once again I note that a man is telling women that their hard-won rights don't matter and they will just be "let go". Not your call to make, guys.

^ This.

Glad I'm not the only one disturbed by the increasingly misogynistic antics of the so-called transgender movement.

 

[Rolfe]

And that's what we're concerned about, and what we're talking about, of course.

I get very tired of people who start whining "You're saying all trans people are perverts/predators/aggressive/whatever" when of course this is not the case. We're concerned about the extremely vocal and indeed violent minority who are, because they are an organised pressure group who are influencing politicians and public organisations to an absolutely unprecedented degree. They are the ones who try to prevent women's meetings happening and who post violent misogynist stuff online about punching terfs and choking them and dying in fires and so on.

This behaviour is also inimical to those trans people who just want to fit in and be accepted for what they are, and an increasing number of these are allying themselves with the feminists to try to push back against these louts.

 

[tyr_13]

If you are concerned for the safety and happiness of trans friends who (like most trans people) are simply trying to get by and hope to be accepted for what they are, you should be very concerned indeed by the antics of the trans rights activists, who are busy poisoning that particular well by insisting that hairy bearded blokes have every right to demand to be recognised as absolutely identical in every way to women who were born as girls and have lived their entire lives in their natal sex.

I'll speak out against tactics and behavior I think is wrong, and I do. What I don't do is then use those disagreements to argue against rights for the others.

And if you seriously think you can socialise aggression out of men, after God alone knows how many millennia, I think you're in for a disappointment.

Your response is misandry. Yes, I do think we can hold everyone to the same standards in that regard. 'That regard' being behavior and not feeling aggression, a straw-man you've created.

And once again I note that a man is telling women that their hard-won rights don't matter and they will just be "let go". Not your call to make, guys.

Oh, before I'm supposed to speak out against bad behavior, but now I can't because of my sex? You don't get to have it both ways; either I have input in the issue or I don't. You don't get to tell me I can only agree with you. This is an argument I've had with many a feminist. One of the key insights of feminism is that when half the population is locked out of anything (schools, engineering, topics, television, etc), then you're locking out half the potential labor and talent. Women are authoritative on their experiences and feelings, but not on how those things must be addressed or ideas on how to address them. The logic doesn't even work because one could just reframe the issue as a trans issue, so cis people like you and I don't get to have input.

But the trump card I have is how many women absolutely agree with me. Don't like the argument coming from me? Fine, I'll just start quoting women who agree and you can then address the argument and not the arguer.

And that's what we're concerned about, and what we're talking about, of course.

I get very tired of people who start whining "You're saying all trans people are perverts/predators/aggressive/whatever" when of course this is not the case. We're concerned about the extremely vocal and indeed violent minority who are, because they are an organised pressure group who are influencing politicians and public organisations to an absolutely unprecedented degree. They are the ones who try to prevent women's meetings happening and who post violent misogynist stuff online about punching terfs and choking them and dying in fires and so on.

This behaviour is also inimical to those trans people who just want to fit in and be accepted for what they are, and an increasing number of these are allying themselves with the feminists to try to push back against these louts.

This is exactly the same argument used against homosexuals, and just as invalid here. Being critical of those whose behavior you don't like it one thing, denying others rights because of it is very much another.

 

[Rolfe]

The thing is, your rights end where my face begins. Homosexuals didn't want anything that took away rights from any other groups. Trans activists want to remove women's rights.

You are not a woman. You do not have the right to dictate to women which rights they should give up.

 

[tyr_13]

The thing is, your rights end where my face begins. Homosexuals didn't want anything that took away rights from any other groups. Trans activists want to remove women's rights.

You are not a woman. You do not have the right to dictate to women which rights they should give up.

Everyone has input in such things. That's society.

Trans women are women. Other cis women strongly disagree with you. You don't have the right to dictate such a thing either.

 

[Rolfe]

You complain about people who refer to male-bodied people as "he", but you carry on using the offensive term "cis".

Why am I not surprised about this?

Oh, and trans women are trans women, not women. And the way the activists are carrying on, more and more women are likely to reclaim even that use of the word "woman" and revert to "trans-identifying man".

 

[tyr_13]

You complain about people who refer to male-bodied people as "he", but you carry on using the offensive term "cis".

Why am I not surprised about this?

Your offense is not reasonable. You being offended by it is evidence of nothing in and of itself.

Being offended doesn't make you right.

 

[Rolfe]

In that case, right back at you as regards the menz whose feelz get all hurtz when they're referred to as men.

 

[Strawberry]

Everyone has input in such things. That's society.

Trans women are women. Other cis women strongly disagree with you. You don't have the right to dictate such a thing either.

You'll find very few 'cis' women who agree with allowing any boy or man who says he's female into female only spaces like changing rooms and sleeping areas. And sorry, but I don't see why any man should have any input into a decision about who I get undressed in front of, or who my daughter is getting undressed in front of on a school trip, (except obviously her father who would agree with me).

 

[tyr_13]

In that case, right back at you as regards the menz whose feelz get all hurtz when they're referred to as men.

You should. It's much more in line with your feelings on the issue and displays the level of thought and care you have around it.

You'll find very few 'cis' women who agree with allowing any boy or man who says he's female into female only spaces like changing rooms and sleeping areas. And sorry, but I don't see why any man should have any input into a decision about who I get undressed in front of, or who my daughter is getting undressed in front of on a school trip, (except obviously her father who would agree with me).

Again, the exact same argument as against homosexuals. The exact same.

 

[Strawberry]

You should. It's much more in line with your feelings on the issue and displays the level of thought and care you have around it.



Again, the exact same argument as against homosexuals. The exact same.

Really? Show me where anybody was ever afraid of heterosexuals masquerading as homosexuals to get access to ...erm...what would they get access to exactly?

 

[d4m10n]

No way am I booking a sleeper berth on a train as a single woman and then discovering that I'm expected to share with a man who has simply decided to fill in a form saying he identifies as female, but that's the situation women are currently facing. (Sleeper berths in British trains are all two-bunk units and if you're travelling alone you say what sex you are so they can match you up with a suitable berth-mate for the journey.) This does not have to happen, the law allows the rail company to implement an exemption and make the sleeper berths SEX-segregated...

I'm going to assume you refer here to the communal accommodation exceptions found in schedule 23.

I do appreciate the opportunity to focus on a very specific example. Suppose Buck Angel happens to be on your train. Would you be okay with sharing a sleeper berth?