Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

[bagels]

Speaking of 'alternative explanations', let's not forget these gems:

1. there could have been masked students waiting in lines for busses going to Halloween parties on Nov. 1 despite not a single witness supporting that claim.

2. Sollecito is left-handed despite contrary evidence because there is a picture of him holding something in his left hand.

3. Sollecito could have owned a Naparijini jacket and cap with red stripe despite there being absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he owned either.

4. The partial print on the pillowcase that matched the bottom of Guede's shoe could have been Amanda's shoe.

5. The alleged blonde hair found in on Kercher's body could have been Amanda's despite the fact that it was never presented in court and that it was very easy to determine if it was a natural or dyed hair.

6. Guede could have been able to see the cottage from his park bench despite there being tall buildings blocking the view.

7. The luminol revealed prints could have been in blood despite negative TMB test results.

And the list goes on and on.....

If the PGP were capable of seeing irony I suppose they wouldn't be PGP. So we're doomed to continue getting posts from Vixen saying things like the ISC can't evaluate evidence, you need DNA from another suspect to really exonerate someone, the Italian courts are corrupt, etc etc, without a trace of irony.

 

[Numbers]

One recent guilter false claim is that the majority of exonerations are the result of "technical" issues. Here's an example of such a claim:

"The vast majority of vacated convictions are to do with technicalities (legal loopholes, lapses in police procedure) not because there is any exonerating evidence, such as someone else's DNA."

Well, as usual with guilter claims, there are glaring problems with this guilter statement. Here's a list of the problems:

1. There is no citation to back it up. Therefore, the statement is merely the opinion of an anonymous online poster, who may have an agenda for presenting false information to support the guilters' hopelessly invalid arguments.

2. Many of the terms and phrases used have no clear definition or legal meaning. For example, under US law (for example), or Italian law, more relevantly to the AK - RS case, what is a "technicality"? What is a "legal loophole" - is it that the arrest or conviction was contrary to the law or Constitution of that jurisdiction? What is a "lapse in police procedures" - is that the person arrested or convicted was not provided with a lawyer or translator as required by that jurisdiction's laws, or that the person was coerced to make a false statement incriminating himself or someone else, using psychological and/or physical methods, for example, being hit during an interrogation?

3. Actual data are available for exonerations in the US, for the period 1989 to 28 April 2018. There were a total of 2204 exonerations in this period, each exoneration being equivalent to a wrongful conviction and to a sentence being vacated or dismissed. The factors causing the wrongful convictions, and thus the reason for the exonerations, are as follows:

Perjury or false accusation: 57% (1257/2204)
Official misconduct: 52% (1143/2204)
Mistaken witness ID: 29% (645/2204)
False or misleading forensic evidence: 24% (525/2204)
False confession: 13% (276/2204)

The percentages add up to more than 100% because some cases had more than one causal factor.

It's noteworthy that "technicality", "legal loophole", and "lapses in police procedure" are not listed in this data, which were collected and analyzed by a consortium of US universities including the law schools of the University of Michigan and Michigan State University.

Source: http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/ExonerationsContribFactorsByCrime.aspx

 

[Stacyhs]

One recent guilter false claim is that the majority of exonerations are the result of "technical" issues. Here's an example of such a claim:

"The vast majority of vacated convictions are to do with technicalities (legal loopholes, lapses in police procedure) not because there is any exonerating evidence, such as someone else's DNA."

Well, as usual with guilter claims, there are glaring problems with this guilter statement. Here's a list of the problems:

1. There is no citation to back it up. Therefore, the statement is merely the opinion of an anonymous online poster, who may have an agenda for presenting false information to support the guilters' hopelessly invalid arguments.

2. Many of the terms and phrases used have no clear definition or legal meaning. For example, under US law (for example), or Italian law, more relevantly to the AK - RS case, what is a "technicality"? What is a "legal loophole" - is it that the arrest or conviction was contrary to the law or Constitution of that jurisdiction? What is a "lapse in police procedures" - is that the person arrested or convicted was not provided with a lawyer or translator as required by that jurisdiction's laws, or that the person was coerced to make a false statement incriminating himself or someone else, using psychological and/or physical methods, for example, being hit during an interrogation?

3. Actual data are available for exonerations in the US, for the period 1989 to 28 April 2018. There were a total of 2204 exonerations in this period, each exoneration being equivalent to a wrongful conviction and to a sentence being vacated or dismissed. The factors causing the wrongful convictions, and thus the reason for the exonerations, are as follows:

Perjury or false accusation: 57% (1257/2204)
Official misconduct: 52% (1143/2204)
Mistaken witness ID: 29% (645/2204)
False or misleading forensic evidence: 24% (525/2204)
False confession: 13% (276/2204)

The percentages add up to more than 100% because some cases had more than one causal factor.

It's noteworthy that "technicality", "legal loophole", and "lapses in police procedure" are not listed in this data, which were collected and analyzed by a consortium of US universities including the law schools of the University of Michigan and Michigan State University.

Source: http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/ExonerationsContribFactorsByCrime.aspx

Also not listed as causal factors in this data are the Mafia, the Masons, or Shills.

 

[TruthCalls]

If the PGP were capable of seeing irony I suppose they wouldn't be PGP. So we're doomed to continue getting posts from Vixen saying things like the ISC can't evaluate evidence, you need DNA from another suspect to really exonerate someone, the Italian courts are corrupt, etc etc, without a trace of irony.

Nope, even that doesn't do it with some PGP... Remember, Ryan isn't a good example of a wrongful conviction (i.e., our dear Vixen still thinks Ryan is guilty) even though there WAS DNA from someone else (not to mention a complete lack of forensics of Ryan or Erickson - sound familiar?). As far as I can tell, Vixen doesn't believe anyone has ever been wrongfully convicted.

 

[Bill Williams]

Nope, even that doesn't do it with some PGP... Remember, Ryan isn't a good example of a wrongful conviction (i.e., our dear Vixen still thinks Ryan is guilty) even though there WAS DNA from someone else (not to mention a complete lack of forensics of Ryan or Erickson - sound familiar?). As far as I can tell, Vixen doesn't believe anyone has ever been wrongfully convicted.

Someone at Wikipedia believes that AK and RS were eventually legally exonerated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#Italy

Don't tell me - the Masons and Mafia have bought off Jimbo Wales and Wikipedia. Yes, that's it. If they can buy off the Italian judiciary, then why not Wikipedia?

 

[Numbers]

Nope, even that doesn't do it with some PGP... Remember, Ryan isn't a good example of a wrongful conviction (i.e., our dear Vixen still thinks Ryan is guilty) even though there WAS DNA from someone else (not to mention a complete lack of forensics of Ryan or Erickson - sound familiar?). As far as I can tell, Vixen doesn't believe anyone has ever been wrongfully convicted.

The guilters really don't provide all the relevant information when they discuss wrongful convictions and the settlements for wrongful convictions.

For example, Ryan Ferguson was exonerated in 2013, when his convictions for robbery and murder were vacated by a 3 judge panel of the Missouri Court of Appeals. He had served 10 years in prison for crimes he had not committed.

In July, 2017, Ferguson was awarded $11 million by a Federal court: $1 million for each year he was in prison and $1 million to cover legal expenses after {the court found} that six Columbia Police Department officers violated Ferguson’s rights by fabricating evidence to win a conviction.

"The trial only covered how much Ferguson would be awarded, not whether the officers were guilty of constitutional violations. At the start of the trial, {Federal Judge} Laughrey asked the attorneys to explain the settlement of liability. Attorney Brad Letterman, who represented the officers, tried hard to tell her that it was not an admission of liability but instead an agreement that liability would likely be proven if a trial occurred.

Laughrey made it clear that by allowing the settlement, the officers were admitting liability whether they wanted to do so or not.

“It means that, in fact, these defendants are liable for constitutional violations,” she said."

Source: www.columbiatribune.com/news/20170710/ryan-ferguson-awarded-11-million-in-civil-rights-lawsuit

Apparently the guilters don't comprehend that US law, in accordance with the US Constitution, requires "due process" - that is, fair and legal procedures - in criminal cases, and, in general, equal treatment under law. Those whose rights are violated are entitled to compensation.

Also, relevant to the Knox - Sollecito case, six police officers were responsible for the fabrication of evidence to frame Ferguson. Similarly, there is an indication that a number of police officers, as well as one or more prosecutors, worked in parallel or together to violate the rights that Knox and Sollecito were entitled to under Italian law. Sort of like a police - prosecution conspiracy, which some (even some PIPs as well as all guilters) claim did not occur, or (especially the guilters) claim was impossible - because police and prosecution had no motive and never would do such a thing.

 

[Vixen]

Nope, even that doesn't do it with some PGP... Remember, Ryan isn't a good example of a wrongful conviction (i.e., our dear Vixen still thinks Ryan is guilty) even though there WAS DNA from someone else (not to mention a complete lack of forensics of Ryan or Erickson - sound familiar?). As far as I can tell, Vixen doesn't believe anyone has ever been wrongfully convicted.

AFAICS he had a fair trial. I still believe a proper trial in a court of law is the best way to decide guilt or lack thereof.

So Zellner persuaded an eyewitness to retract her statement, some many years after the trial. I can't help but be sceptical about Zellner's methods. We saw the case of Ciolino who did same thing, dug out witnesses years after the crime and persuaded this 'alternative' guy to confess. The alternative guy was promised a short sentence and multimillion dollar book and movie deals. He played along with it, which cancelled out his application for a certificate of innocence as he showed bad faith in having been jailed in the first place. Ciolino posing as an Innocence Project lawyer got an actor to fake being an eyewitness to the crime and naming the 'alternative' guy. It was all a con and a sham to get Ciolino's other 'client' via the Innocence Project 'exonerated' so that the IP could have another 'wrongful conviction' to promote.

Trial by mass media and PR campaigns is loaded with potential corruption and hidden agendas (cf the Russian twitter and FB campaign to swing the US elections).

Can't beat twelve just men and a proper hearing before highly trained judges, almost all of whom will be barristers with at least seven years experience at the bar.

 

[Vixen]

Cute video Amanda Knox posted. I'm sure someone will find something hateful to say about it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bh8B57tl-w2/

Just saw this.

The cat is cute.

I bet it is Party Rock who is the animal lover.

Psychopaths and pets do not go well together.

 

[Vixen]

As usual no citation as to which Sollecito.

But whatever. What would a day in this thread be without some getting viciousness for the day out of their system?

It is referring to Sollecito being a member of that notorious closed FB group discussing how to get away with murder, with our Raffy boy being an ardent contributor. Why, the wit even posted a photoshopped photo of his ex-girlfriend with whom he was madly deeply in love with being er, well, this might be a family forum, so I shan't post what the naked guy behind her appeared to be doing to his cherie amoure.

 

[bagels]

Bringing up other irrelevant cases is a sure sign your arguments on the Knox case are solid.

 

[Welshman]

Just saw this.

The cat is cute.

I bet it is Party Rock who is the animal lover.

Psychopaths and pets do not go well together.

There is no evidence Amanda is psychopath.

 

[bagels]

There is no evidence Amanda is psychopath.

It's interesting that Amanda, Meredith, and Raffaele were all living perfectly normal peaceful uneventful lives until the exact moment their lives all intersected with Rudy Guede.

But what could it mean?

 

[Bill Williams]

There is no evidence Amanda is psychopath.

It's interesting that Amanda, Meredith, and Raffaele were all living perfectly normal peaceful uneventful lives until the exact moment their lives all intersected with Rudy Guede.

But what could it mean?

There is also no evidence at all that Meredith's and Amanda's friendship had anything but normal household strains on it. In fact, Meredith's boyfriend testified that they'd been on good terms.

There's also no evidence at all that there'd been any premeditation to this crime, no matter who'd been involved.

The only evidence of Knox's DNA at the scene was in places which would be normal considering she'd lived there, like the bathroom she'd shared with the victim. There is no evidence at all of "mixed blood", and that is simply what one reads even in the court-motivation-reports which provisionally convicted the pair!

Yes I agree - what could all this mean?

 

[AnimalFriendly]

I bet it is Party Rock who is the animal lover.

Psychopaths and pets do not go well together.

Which can only mean that a certain thoroughly untalented editor - of trash-ridden "true crime" works (of fiction) - does not share her life with any. What a relief!

As for betting, as you have already been told: bet with your head not over it.

 

[Numbers]

The guilters' argument is essentially that all police and prosecutors are always honest and ethical - that they would never engage in misconduct by virtue of their office, and so the ones in Italy involved in the Knox - Sollecito case were totally honest and ethical, and were by virtue of their office had not engaged in misconduct in the Knox - Sollecito case.

Yet there are cases that clearly show that not all police and prosecutors are honest and ethical and do not commit misconduct. Thus, one cannot logically infer that the Italian police and prosecutors were honest and ethical and did not commit misconduct.

For example, a number of Italian police were dishonest and unethical, committing official misconduct including violations of Italian law and human rights under the European Convention during the G8 meeting in Genoa. Here's a media article about the latest penalty imposed on those officers; I don't know if this is a final judgment.

G8 Genova: Bolzaneto, 26 condannati a pagare danni allo Stato per 6 milioni
Per risarcimenti sborsati alle vittime degli abusi durante il G8 di Genova nel 2001

Sei milioni di euro per i danni causati allo Stato in seguito ai risarcimenti pagati a chi subì gli abusi nella caserma di Bolzaneto durante il G8 di Genova nel 2001. Lo hanno stabilito i giudici della Corte dei conti di Genova che hanno condannato 26 persone, tra personale medico-sanitario, appartenenti della polizia, carabinieri e polizia penitenziaria. Tra questi, come anticipato nell'edizione locale di Repubblica, anche Alfonso Sabella, all'epoca dei fatti capo dell'Ispettorato del Dipartimento dell'amministrazione penitenziaria (Dap) e il generale Oronzo Doria, ex capo area della Liguria degli agenti di polizia penitenziaria.
....

G8 Genoa: Bolzaneto, 26 sentenced to pay damages to the State for 6 million
For compensation paid out to victims of abuse during the G8 in Genoa in 2001

Six million euros for damages caused to the State following the compensation paid to those who suffered the abuse in the Bolzaneto barracks during the G8 in Genoa in 2001. The judges of the Court of Auditors of Genoa who sentenced 26 people, among medical personnel, members of the police, carabinieri and penitentiary police. Among them, as anticipated in the local edition of the Republic, also Alfonso Sabella, at the time of the facts head of the Inspectorate of the Department of Prison Administration (DAP) and General Oronzo Doria, former head of Liguria area of the prison police officers .
....

Source: http://www.ansa.it/liguria/notizie/...to-_b1818cec-c04f-4cb4-ba1e-5e720cc8b611.html

Translation by Google translate

Here's another example, from Spain, contradicting the guilters' claim:

Five men, including a police officer for the paramilitary Guardia Civil, were convicted of jointly (as a "wolf pack") conducting a sexual assault on an 18 year old woman, and the police officer was fined an extra €900 for stealing her phone.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43935380

 

[Stacyhs]

AFAICS he had a fair trial. I still believe a proper trial in a court of law is the best way to decide guilt or lack thereof.

So Zellner persuaded an eyewitness to retract her statement, some many years after the trial. I can't help but be sceptical about Zellner's methods. We saw the case of Ciolino who did same thing, dug out witnesses years after the crime and persuaded this 'alternative' guy to confess. The alternative guy was promised a short sentence and multimillion dollar book and movie deals. He played along with it, which cancelled out his application for a certificate of innocence as he showed bad faith in having been jailed in the first place. Ciolino posing as an Innocence Project lawyer got an actor to fake being an eyewitness to the crime and naming the 'alternative' guy. It was all a con and a sham to get Ciolino's other 'client' via the Innocence Project 'exonerated' so that the IP could have another 'wrongful conviction' to promote.Trial by mass media and PR campaigns is loaded with potential corruption and hidden agendas (cf the Russian twitter and FB campaign to swing the US elections).

Can't beat twelve just men and a proper hearing before highly trained judges, almost all of whom will be barristers with at least seven years experience at the bar.

Of course you believe Ferguson had a fair trial...even though six police officers were held responsible for faking evidence against him. Unbelievable.

You suspect Zellner because she was successful at getting a witness to retract a statement years later yet you have no suspicion about a reporter getting two witnesses to come forward about a year later claiming to have seen what they'd initially denied seeing to the police. In addition, you have no suspicion that that same reporter got a woman to claim she had heard a horrific scream the night of the murder. A woman who never mentioned said scream to her niece or anyone else including the police when she knew a murder had occurred. Nope, you don't find any of that suspicious at all.

As for Paul Ciolino, you've mixed falsehoods with fact in your post. Yes, Ciolino did show Simon a video with one of his employees claiming to have witnessed Simon committing the murder. However, "Simon then pleaded guilty on the advice of his attorney, Jack Rimland, who warned he would face the death penalty if he went to trial", not because Ciolino "promised him a short sentence" (Chicago Sun Times April 28, 2016) which he had no power to do.
Simon claims that Ciolino posed as a policeman, not as an IP lawyer as you falsely claim. Simon also claims he was offered money for a book and movie deal and that Ciolino threatened him with a gun but that has not been proved.

Simon also confessed to the crime seven more times.

Ciolino, has filed his own $20 million countersuit against State's Attorney Anita Alvarez, Simon, Simon's civil lawyers and those behind a documentary and book on the case.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ez-conspiracy-lawsuit-met-20160428-story.html

What I find interesting is that many PGP have claimed that innocent people do not falsely confess to crimes they didn't commit unless they are tortured. Yet, if Simon is indeed innocent, this is a case where someone does falsely confess to a murder without being tortured.

 

[Stacyhs]

Cute video Amanda Knox posted. I'm sure someone will find something hateful to say about it.https://www.instagram.com/p/Bh8B57tl-w2/

Just saw this.

The cat is cute.

I bet it is Party Rock who is the animal lover.

Psychopaths and pets do not go well together.

And there it is. True to form. Quelle surprise.

 

[Stacyhs]

The guilters' argument is essentially that all police and prosecutors are always honest and ethical - that they would never engage in misconduct by virtue of their office, and so the ones in Italy involved in the Knox - Sollecito case were totally honest and ethical, and were by virtue of their office had not engaged in misconduct in the Knox - Sollecito case.

Yet there are cases that clearly show that not all police and prosecutors are honest and ethical and do not commit misconduct. Thus, one cannot logically infer that the Italian police and prosecutors were honest and ethical and did not commit misconduct.

For example, a number of Italian police were dishonest and unethical, committing official misconduct including violations of Italian law and human rights under the European Convention during the G8 meeting in Genoa. Here's a media article about the latest penalty imposed on those officers; I don't know if this is a final judgment.

G8 Genova: Bolzaneto, 26 condannati a pagare danni allo Stato per 6 milioni
Per risarcimenti sborsati alle vittime degli abusi durante il G8 di Genova nel 2001

Sei milioni di euro per i danni causati allo Stato in seguito ai risarcimenti pagati a chi subì gli abusi nella caserma di Bolzaneto durante il G8 di Genova nel 2001. Lo hanno stabilito i giudici della Corte dei conti di Genova che hanno condannato 26 persone, tra personale medico-sanitario, appartenenti della polizia, carabinieri e polizia penitenziaria. Tra questi, come anticipato nell'edizione locale di Repubblica, anche Alfonso Sabella, all'epoca dei fatti capo dell'Ispettorato del Dipartimento dell'amministrazione penitenziaria (Dap) e il generale Oronzo Doria, ex capo area della Liguria degli agenti di polizia penitenziaria.
....

G8 Genoa: Bolzaneto, 26 sentenced to pay damages to the State for 6 million
For compensation paid out to victims of abuse during the G8 in Genoa in 2001

Six million euros for damages caused to the State following the compensation paid to those who suffered the abuse in the Bolzaneto barracks during the G8 in Genoa in 2001. The judges of the Court of Auditors of Genoa who sentenced 26 people, among medical personnel, members of the police, carabinieri and penitentiary police. Among them, as anticipated in the local edition of the Republic, also Alfonso Sabella, at the time of the facts head of the Inspectorate of the Department of Prison Administration (DAP) and General Oronzo Doria, former head of Liguria area of the prison police officers .
....

Source: http://www.ansa.it/liguria/notizie/...to-_b1818cec-c04f-4cb4-ba1e-5e720cc8b611.html

Translation by Google translate

Here's another example, from Spain, contradicting the guilters' claim:

Five men, including a police officer for the paramilitary Guardia Civil, were convicted of jointly (as a "wolf pack") conducting a sexual assault on an 18 year old woman, and the police officer was fined an extra €900 for stealing her phone.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43935380

Let's not forget the case of the two Florence police officers accused of rape by two American college students last September.

 

[Stacyhs]

Apparently, the guy who mowed down people in Toronto was an 'involuntary celibate' [=incel] and that was his motive. There are forums labelled 'incel' for them to release their frustrations towards the opposite sex.

In an Italian newspaper, it is claimed that one such group in Italy idolises 'Sollecito'.



Looks like both parties have achieved their aim of infamy.

Sure. Raffaele just hated women which is why he was in a happy relationship with Amanda.
But that and the fact that he had no history of problems with women doesn't deter you from missing any opportunity to denigrate him...even one as pitiful as this.

Speaking of being true to form, you're not going to acknowledge that your challenge to me to provide evidence that Curatolo did mention Halloween and masked students specifically was accepted and proved, are ya?

 

[Numbers]

Let's not forget the case of the two Florence police officers accused of rape by two American college students last September.

I didn't include that because those officers have not been convicted. The evidence, however, seems to weigh toward guilt and even premeditation, because, in a violation of police procedure, the officers did not notify their headquarters of their taking the two young women in their patrol car back to the women's apartment.