Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

[Bill Williams]

You've been naughty, haven't you, Stacyhs? You claimed Toto said there were people 'wearing masks' and that there were no buses running.

Wrong, on both counts.

Here is Curatolo's testimony, from the horse's mouth (here the cout has designated him 'B.C', probably because there aleardy was an 'A.C.' (Antonio).



http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Antonio_Curatolo's_Testimony

I can't see anything impossible, here.

You really believe Curatolo citing disco buses means he's describing what he saw on Nov 1......

...... when those buses ran on Oct 31?

Really? Maybe "several people" told you that the buses had run on Nov 1!!!!!

You should stop listening to these "several people".

 

[Numbers]

The guilters fail to realize that Amanda Knox has been repeatedly invited to speak about her experiences as a wrongfully convicted person, a victim of errors and misconduct by the Italian authorities, at many conferences and meetings relating to correcting wrongful convictions.

According to ECHR case-law, a person such as Knox who was wrongfully provisionally convicted and then exonerated by a final definitive acquittal remains a victim until adequately compensated by the state responsible for the unjust detention. Knox is also considered a victim by the ECHR on the basis of her claims that her rights were violated in her conviction by Italy for calunnia, until such claims are resolved either by being declared inadmissible by the ECHR or by being acknowledged as violations of the Convention and appropriately redressed by Italy.

These conferences and meetings are sponsored by actual lawyers and civic leaders interested in reforming the US (and on one known occasion, the Canadian) judicial system.

In contrast, the guilters get to express their malicious and unjustified hatred of Knox on internet forums, where the guilters spout false claims and display their ignorance of many topics, including but not limited to forensic sciences such as blood identification tests and DNA profiling, elementary physics, biology, and Italian and Council of Europe (ECHR) law.

 

[Numbers]

You really believe Curatolo citing disco buses means he's describing what he saw on Nov 1......

...... when those buses ran on Oct 31?

Really? Maybe "several people" told you that the buses had run on Nov 1!!!!!

You should stop listening to these "several people".

Here's a relevant excerpt of the Marasca CSC panel motivation report discussion of Curatolo:

"Curatolo (an enigmatic personality: a vagrant, drug addict and drug pusher) - apart from the lateness of his statements and the fact that he was not new to judicial protagonism in cases under the media spotlight - was however disproved by reference to groups of young people leaving that evening in coaches for discotheques in the area, it being proven that on the night of the murder, the bus service was not running; also the reference to masks and practical jokes which he claimed to have witnessed that evening; that would lead to a conclusion that it was Halloween, 31-Oct, and not 01-Nov, the date of the murder."

So there is another fail for the guilters.

 

[Vixen]

Here's a relevant excerpt of the Marasca CSC panel motivation report discussion of Curatolo:

"Curatolo (an enigmatic personality: a vagrant, drug addict and drug pusher) - apart from the lateness of his statements and the fact that he was not new to judicial protagonism in cases under the media spotlight - was however disproved by reference to groups of young people leaving that evening in coaches for discotheques in the area, it being proven that on the night of the murder, the bus service was not running; also the reference to masks and practical jokes which he claimed to have witnessed that evening; that would lead to a conclusion that it was Halloween, 31-Oct, and not 01-Nov, the date of the murder."

So there is another fail for the guilters.

Bruno-Marasca is even more defective than anyone could have imagined. The Chieffi Supreme Court already established Hellmann erred in looking at Curatolo and picking holes in his lifestyle...yet Marasca reinstates yet another res judicata decision.

It was decided once and for all that Curatolo's personality was not the issue being examined. Marasca does a CPR and breathes new life into the corpse.

Secondly, it puts words in Toto's mouth about 'masks'. Bloody hell. It's making up its own evidence and then upholding its own strawman.

Marasca -Bruno is a disgrace.

 

[Stacyhs]

You've been naughty, haven't you, Stacyhs? You claimed Toto said there were people 'wearing masks' and that there were no buses running.

Wrong, on both counts.

Here is Curatolo's testimony, from the horse's mouth (here the cout has designated him 'B.C', probably because there aleardy was an 'A.C.' (Antonio).



http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Antonio_Curatolo's_Testimony

I can't see anything impossible, here.

Ummmm....I never said that Curatolo said the busses were not running. I said that he claimed they were running and that he saw students waiting in line to board them to the discos. Please be more accurate.

You do realize, don't you, that what you quoted was his testimony during the Massei trial? What he testified in the Hellmann trial is what discredited him:

Curatolo's testimony described people in costumes which the defense maintains was Halloween the night before the murder but Curatolo also insists that it was the night before the forensic police arrived so this is a contradiction in his testimony

Curatolo also mentioned that the busses that shuttle students to the nightclubs were present but the defense has asked Hellmann to allow three witnesses who plan to tell the court that because of the holiday they did not run the busses that night

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Hellmann_Appeal

So you are wrong on both counts. As I said, this kind of thing is why I'm still here. So amusing.

 

[Stacyhs]

Bruno-Marasca is even more defective than anyone could have imagined. The Chieffi Supreme Court already established Hellmann erred in looking at Curatolo and picking holes in his lifestyle...yet Marasca reinstates yet another res judicata decision.

It was decided once and for all that Curatolo's personality was not the issue being examined. Marasca does a CPR and breathes new life into the corpse.

Secondly, it puts words in Toto's mouth about 'masks'. Bloody hell. It's making up its own evidence and then upholding its own strawman.

Marasca -Bruno is a disgrace.

LOL! Here is Andrea Vogt's report about Curatolo's testimony:

But minutes later, in questioning by Sollecito’s lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, Curatolo also said he had seen young people in masks and getting on buses to go to the discos.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/sixth_appeal_hearing_andrea_vogt/

Is the PGP darling, Vogt, also "putting things in Curatolo's mouth"?

"The two youngsters were talking intensely to each other," he told the court. "I can remember that in the piazza that night young people in masks were coming and going and buses were leaving for the nightclubs."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/26/amanda-knox-appeal-contradictory-testimony


You're not having a good day today, are ya?

 

[Numbers]

BTW, Curatolo did testify, on 28 March 2009, before the Massei court, that he could see the police at the entrance to the cottage from the piazza. So perhaps some x-ray vision was required, as demonstrated by Google maps. And he testified that he saw the police before the cottage on the same night he saw kids out celebrating (Halloween). Here's an excerpt from the translation of his testimony:

"CURATOLO I went to get a cappuccino at the café. Then I sat down at the bench, smoked a cigarette. Every so often came some kid I knew, a friend, and we chatted. But there was something strange because there was a lot of movement by the police, coming and going. We were in the Piazza until around 1:30, 2:00. Or rather, I was there for even longer, only that the Carabinieri came to ask us if we had heard something or seen something. I said I hadn’t heard anything. Apart from the kids who were out having fun that night I didn’t see anything grave. We were there for a little while, and there was this coming and going of the police. We went to look down and we saw people wearing white suits – the police, Carabinieri. There was a mess of people down there.

MIGNINI Down where? In what area?

CURATOLO Near a house. They were near the entrance to a house.

MIGNINI Via Della Pergola?

CURATOLO Yes.

MIGNINI The house that you saw in the newspapers, in the photos?"

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-transcripts/

 

[Numbers]

LOL! Here is Andrea Vogt's report about Curatolo's testimony:


http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/sixth_appeal_hearing_andrea_vogt/

Is the PGP darling, Vogt, also "putting things in Curatolo's mouth"?

You're not having a good day today, are ya?

Here's the relevant excerpt from the Hellmann appeal court MR translation:

"In fact he stated that on the evening when he saw the two youths there were a lot of masks, young people [giovani] that were joking about, that there was pandemonium [“un casino”] (quoting from the hearing of 3.28.2009 “…There were other people however that were messing about a bit, it was a holiday period…”) and again he confirmed the presence of masks, of young people joking about and pandemonium [“un casino”] at the hearing of 3.26.2011 in front of this Court (and in fact he responded affirmatively to the question of Ms. Bongiorno, formulated exactly in these terms) and also recalled (at both the hearing of 3.28.2009 and in front of this Court in the hearing of 3.26.2011) that there were the buses taking the young people [giovani] to the discotheques, such that he correlated [ha ancorato] his stay in Piazza Grimana up until about ten minutes after their departure, at a time indicated as between 11:30 pm – midnight.

According to the defense such circumstances (regardless of whether the two youths seen by the witness were actually the current defendants) would prove that the day in which the witness saw what he reported, was 31 October and not 1 November, considering that the masks were being worn to celebrate Halloween, which in fact falls on the night between 31 October and 1 November and not on the night between 1 November and 2 November, and considering also, that the buses for the discotheques had to be present the evening of 31 October and not the following evening. In fact, practically all the discotheques, open all night between 31 October and 1 November specifically because it was Halloween, remained understandably closed the following evening, the night between 1 November and 2 November, for the anticipated lack of customers the day immediately following a holiday."
___

Indeed, a fail for the guilters.

 

[Vixen]

LOL! Here is Andrea Vogt's report about Curatolo's testimony:


http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/sixth_appeal_hearing_andrea_vogt/

Is the PGP darling, Vogt, also "putting things in Curatolo's mouth"?



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/26/amanda-knox-appeal-contradictory-testimony


You're not having a good day today, are ya?

Curatolo did not say anything about Halloween. He said there was a rowdy group of people 'above' him who left after the bus turned up (there were local buses running) circa 11:00-11:30pm. He doesn't know they are 'going to a disco', that is just his assumption, as he knew buses to the Red Zone nighclubs ran 'Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays'. The point he was making is that Knox & Sollecito were not waiting for the bus, as they remained at the basketball wall after the bus left, with Raff popping down the steps periodically.

He says, the very next day he and his chums witnessed the carabinieri, forenic police and ambulance turn up at circa 1:00- 2:00.

She-eesh!

 

[Stacyhs]

Curatolo did not say anything about Halloween. He said there was a rowdy group of people 'above' him who left after the bus turned up (there were local buses running) circa 11:00-11:30pm. He doesn't know they are 'going to a disco', that is just his assumption, as he knew buses to the Red Zone nighclubs ran 'Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays'. The point he was making is that Knox & Sollecito were not waiting for the bus, as they remained at the basketball wall after the bus left, with Raff popping down the steps periodically.

He says, the very next day he and his chums witnessed the carabinieri, forenic police and ambulance turn up at circa 1:00- 2:00.

She-eesh!

So you still want to claim that there were crowds of students wearing costumes and masks and getting on busses, not on Halloween, but on Nov. 1? Not the night of Halloween but on the night after and the night before a regular work day? Despite the fact that not a single witness ever confirmed there were Halloween parties being held on Nov. 1 and actual club owners who testified they had no Halloween parties on Nov. 1? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

He also claimed he had not seen or heard anything out of the ordinary when asked by the police on Nov. 2. Yet a year later, he "remembers" something so important he then agrees to go to the police when spurred on by a journalist. A journalist who just 'happened' to find two other dubious witnesses...one of whom also denied seeing Knox or Sollecito in his store only a year later after having first denied seeing them.

She-eesh!

 

[LondonJohn]

Bruno-Marasca is even more defective than anyone could have imagined. The Chieffi Supreme Court already established Hellmann erred in looking at Curatolo and picking holes in his lifestyle...yet Marasca reinstates yet another res judicata decision.

It was decided once and for all that Curatolo's personality was not the issue being examined. Marasca does a CPR and breathes new life into the corpse.

Secondly, it puts words in Toto's mouth about 'masks'. Bloody hell. It's making up its own evidence and then upholding its own strawman.

Marasca -Bruno is a disgrace.

1) As others have already pointed out, you're embarrassingly only quoting from Curatolo's testimony to the Massei trial. Did you REALLY not know that Curatolo also testified - damningly - before Hellmann's court?

2) Please stop misusing "res judicata" when you clearly don't know what it really means. I mean, I know why you're trying to incorporate as many Latin legal terms as possible, but..... For your information, the judicial rule of res judicata applies to settled judgements, not provisional ones. And it applies to the overall claim or charge and the overall verdict - not the minutiae within the verdict. The term absolutely does not apply in the way you seem to think it does to the Knox/Sollecito murder trial process. So please stop using it in that respect.

3) As has been explained to you within this thread many, many times by now, Italian courts have a duty (set down in law) to assess evidence properly, and only if they can be very confident that is serious, reliable and credible can they use it (and arguments based upon it) to inform their verdict. In the case of Curatolo, the Supreme Court correctly - and entirely within its remit - reasoned that the glaring contradictions in Curatolo's testimony, coupled with his severe mental health issues and his self-confessed addiction to heroin (coupled with his own confession that he would have been using heroin on the night of the murder), meant that there was no way that, in law, the lower courts could possibly have been able to evaluate his claims as serious, reliable and credible. What is it about this that you cannot (or will not) understand? Seriously, tell me.

 

[LondonJohn]

You really believe Curatolo citing disco buses means he's describing what he saw on Nov 1......

...... when those buses ran on Oct 31?

Really? Maybe "several people" told you that the buses had run on Nov 1!!!!!

You should stop listening to these "several people".

Only someone with an extraordinary amount of chutzpah could post a piece of trial transcript in which Curatolo repeatedly confirms that there were disco buses picking up students on the night he "remembers" to try to bolster Curatolo's credibility

 

[Stacyhs]

Curatolo did not say anything about Halloween. He said there was a rowdy group of people 'above' him who left after the bus turned up (there were local buses running) circa 11:00-11:30pm. He doesn't know they are 'going to a disco', that is just his assumption, as he knew buses to the Red Zone nighclubs ran 'Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays'. The point he was making is that Knox & Sollecito were not waiting for the bus, as they remained at the basketball wall after the bus left, with Raff popping down the steps periodically.

He says, the very next day he and his chums witnessed the carabinieri, forenic police and ambulance turn up at circa 1:00- 2:00.

She-eesh!

Oh, but he did when Judge Zanetti questioned him:

Judge: So, you saw Amanda and Raffaele?
Curatolo: Yeah, it was Halloween when I saw them. I know this because I saw the kids getting on the disco buses all dressed up in costumes. That’s how I also know what time it was. Judge: When is Halloween?
Curatolo: I don’t know. Maybe end of October or beginning of November, I think.
Judge: You aren’t sure? What about your case now? You are in prison, correct? How long will you be there?
Curatolo: I don’t know. I don’t understand the case against me really. I understand nothing.

(Testimony 2011 )

Your day isn't getting any better, is it?

 

[LondonJohn]

Curatolo did not say anything about Halloween. He said there was a rowdy group of people 'above' him who left after the bus turned up (there were local buses running) circa 11:00-11:30pm. He doesn't know they are 'going to a disco', that is just his assumption, as he knew buses to the Red Zone nighclubs ran 'Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays'. The point he was making is that Knox & Sollecito were not waiting for the bus, as they remained at the basketball wall after the bus left, with Raff popping down the steps periodically.

Oh dear. What you've done there is that you've misrepresented Curatolo's testimony and his claims, haven't you.

Incidentally, Curatolo's understanding of the days of the week on which the disco buses ran throws up another significant factor: Curatolo (thought he) knew that the buses ran on Thursdays, and obviously he knew (possibly not at the time, but after being "reminded" of the date at a later time) that the murder occurred on Thursday 1st November. So Curatolo seems to have thought that his "recollection" of the disco buses actually corroborated his story, since he assumed the murder happened on the first night of the week on which the buses ran. However (as we all know by now), the presence of Halloween on a Wednesday evening (and the presence of a sombre holy day of obligation the following day) meant that actually the buses ran on Wednesday and not Thursday that week.

He says, the very next day he and his chums witnessed the carabinieri, forenic police and ambulance turn up at circa 1:00- 2:00.

Seriously? Seriously?! You're suggesting that just because Curatolo claims to "remember" - several months after the event, and during which time he was heroin-dependent - that the day he saw the authorities etc coming and going from the cottage was the "very next day" after the night he claims to have seen Knox and Sollecito in the square...... that this in itself somehow lends credibility and weight to the veracity of his claim?!!!! Wow.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh, but he did when Judge Zanetti questioned him:


(Testimony 2011 )

Your day isn't getting any better, is it?

And that single quote from "Smells like Teen Spirit" Curatolo, right there, renders his testimony fundamentally unreliable and devoid of credibility. Before we even get onto the other myriad huge reasons to fully discount his claims.

Perhaps Vixen will start to understand now just how and why the Marasca SC panel was able to strike out Curatolo's "evidence" - and perhaps at the same time Vixen might stop to wonder just how on Earth the convicting courts (and including the Chieffi SC panel) managed to deem Curatolo's claims to be serious, credible and reliable...........

 

[LondonJohn]

BTW, Curatolo did testify, on 28 March 2009, before the Massei court, that he could see the police at the entrance to the cottage from the piazza. So perhaps some x-ray vision was required, as demonstrated by Google maps. And he testified that he saw the police before the cottage on the same night he saw kids out celebrating (Halloween). Here's an excerpt from the translation of his testimony:

"CURATOLO I went to get a cappuccino at the café. Then I sat down at the bench, smoked a cigarette. Every so often came some kid I knew, a friend, and we chatted. But there was something strange because there was a lot of movement by the police, coming and going. We were in the Piazza until around 1:30, 2:00. Or rather, I was there for even longer, only that the Carabinieri came to ask us if we had heard something or seen something. I said I hadn’t heard anything. Apart from the kids who were out having fun that night I didn’t see anything grave. We were there for a little while, and there was this coming and going of the police. We went to look down and we saw people wearing white suits – the police, Carabinieri. There was a mess of people down there.

MIGNINI Down where? In what area?

CURATOLO Near a house. They were near the entrance to a house.

MIGNINI Via Della Pergola?

CURATOLO Yes.

MIGNINI The house that you saw in the newspapers, in the photos?"

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-transcripts/

Well in fairness the *vague* Curatolo may have been referring to the entrance gate to the cottage, which was just visible from one extreme edge of the square. It would perhaps have been instructive for one of the defence lawyers on cross to have asked him to clarify which "entrance" he meant. Another defence slip-up, albeit a relatively minor one (since as has been discussed here, it seems clear that the main use of Curatolo to the prosecution and the convicting courts was to destroy the claim of Knox and Sollecito that they spent the whole evening/night of the murder together alone in Sollecito's apartment.....)

 

[Vixen]

1) As others have already pointed out, you're embarrassingly only quoting from Curatolo's testimony to the Massei trial. Did you REALLY not know that Curatolo also testified - damningly - before Hellmann's court?

2) Please stop misusing "res judicata" when you clearly don't know what it really means. I mean, I know why you're trying to incorporate as many Latin legal terms as possible, but..... For your information, the judicial rule of res judicata applies to settled judgements, not provisional ones. And it applies to the overall claim or charge and the overall verdict - not the minutiae within the verdict. The term absolutely does not apply in the way you seem to think it does to the Knox/Sollecito murder trial process. So please stop using it in that respect.

3) As has been explained to you within this thread many, many times by now, Italian courts have a duty (set down in law) to assess evidence properly, and only if they can be very confident that is serious, reliable and credible can they use it (and arguments based upon it) to inform their verdict. In the case of Curatolo, the Supreme Court correctly - and entirely within its remit - reasoned that the glaring contradictions in Curatolo's testimony, coupled with his severe mental health issues and his self-confessed addiction to heroin (coupled with his own confession that he would have been using heroin on the night of the murder), meant that there was no way that, in law, the lower courts could possibly have been able to evaluate his claims as serious, reliable and credible. What is it about this that you cannot (or will not) understand? Seriously, tell me.

You are incorrect. Any decision by a court can be appealed. It does not have to be a verdict. Chieffi, the Supreme Court ruled once and for all that it was to err legally for Curatolo's appearance and lifestyle to be the point of focus. Final decision. Res iudicata.

Marasca-Bruno does not outrank Chieffi. It did not have the power or jursidiction to resusitate Toto's chosen lifestyle. Yes, Toto was a wreck by 2011. That still doesn't cancel out the fact he saw Knox & Sollecito hanging around the basketball court on the eve of the murder, keeping watch over the scene below. The basketball court wall was about 60 metres from the cottage and did overlook via Pergola.

So Toto was mistaken about the destination of the partygoers. Being a Thursday night, why wouldn't people still be partying, with a long bank holiday weekend ahead on a Thursday evening. Thursday is fast becoming the new Friday for work party dos, as people want to reserve Friday evening for their families. Marasca's claim it is not credible anyone would be partying on a Thursday night is a stupid one. If you had to go to work the morning after Halloween, it makes sense to party the day after. That's what people in the City do. Every Friday we would finish at 4:00, make our way to the basement to socialise and have drinks. Then with a Bacardi Breezer in our hands, we would totter off to some incredibly loud wine bar-cum-nightclub in Moorgate or Finsbury Square. Marasca's reasoning that it must have been Wednesday when Toto witnessed the rowdy revellers is just crap. There are also hen parties and stag parties. A guy in my office loved nothing more than to dress up in costume, and we would all eagerly gather round his latest package sent via the office, to see his latest mad costume. My bank manager in Finland loves nothing more than to dress up as a Harry Potter character for his Halloween parties, which - hello???!!! - are not always exactly on 31 Oct!!!


I cannot believe the terrible reasoning of Hellmann and Marasca. They are as thick as two broad planks. Or utterly corrupt, more like.

 

[Vixen]

Deleted.

 

[Vixen]

Only someone with an extraordinary amount of chutzpah could post a piece of trial transcript in which Curatolo repeatedly confirms that there were disco buses picking up students on the night he "remembers" to try to bolster Curatolo's credibility

The fact he assumes the revellers were waiting for the disco bus doesn't mean that they were. For all he knows, they may have been off to a private party. Perugia is a haven for people who like to party.

 

[Vixen]

Oh, but he did when Judge Zanetti questioned him:


(Testimony 2011 )

Your day isn't getting any better, is it?

Well, there you go then. Curatolo was indicating that he was thinking of the right date or thereabouts as it coincided virtually with Halloween.

Quote:
Judge: So, you saw Amanda and Raffaele?
Curatolo: Yeah, it was Halloween when I saw them. I know this because I saw the kids getting on the disco buses all dressed up in costumes. That’s how I also know what time it was. Judge: When is Halloween? Curatolo: I don’t know. Maybe end of October or beginning of November, I think. Judge: You aren’t sure? What about your case now? You are in prison, correct? How long will you be there?
Curatolo: I don’t know. I don’t understand the case against me really. I understand nothing.