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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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snipped editorial opinion from ignorance

Keep dreaming dude. You are the one dwelling on the finding of the alleged murder weapon because you love to flaunt your ’pride’ of being somewhat knowledgable in firearms.

snipped handwaving

If you're going to use a word you might want to spell the word properly, and as of yet you have failed to demonstrate any type of knowledge of any of the subject matter involved in the assassination. You do have an opinion on the subject, but I'm sure the historic observation about opinions and body parts applies here too.

I'm well aware of the acoustic evidence and I strongly suspect that this may be another field where your grasp of the subject matter is limited:

OgrF42.jpg
 
Second, explain how Donald Thomas comes up with his figures. Specifically, prove with images that Myers was off by 11 feet when positioning Hughes,
No. Explain how Myers do when he position Hughes exactly where he does. No, he doesn’t use ”epipolar geometri” when calculating it, because you need to have overlapping film, Zapruder/Hughes in order to do that. There is none.

So, how does Myers come to his conclusion? Simple ordinary line of sight.

You disagree?
 
A Mauser turning Carcano turning murder weapon introduced into evidence by Lt. Day, a proven sworn serial liar.

So you can provide a source for all the times he was prosecuted for perjury?

Can you site other proven lies he made in other cases complete with the DPD case numbers and the court docket numbers?

If you can't you should shut up lest people think you're lying again.


A rifle pointing out from the window as well as other withesses seeing other rifles in other windows as well as behind the picket fence on the knoll.

And yet no rifle was found, and not one of the people standing near the fence reported a shooter, in fact most of those people ran toward the fence to get clear of the gunshots coming from the 6th floor of the TSBD.


As well as the witness Jean Hill seeing the shooter behind the picket fence shooting at JFK,

No she didn't. She told WBAP-TV she only heard the shots less than an hour after the shooting. Her claim of seeing a gunman on the Grassy Knoll came years later. She's an unreliable witness. Her friend, Mary Moorman stood next to her during the assassination and has a different story that has never changed since 1963.

You fail.


50 witnesses hearing shots from the knoll,

"Thought" they heard shots.

some of them seeing the puffs of gunsmoke,

Oh, then your suspect was armed with a Civil War era rifle because nobody's used gunpowder/propellant that smokes since the 1890's.


some of them confronting anonymous men showing Secret Service ID’s in spite of no Secret Service men on or around the Dealey Plaza until 20 minutes after the shooting ....

Had you bothered to actually read anything about the assassination you'd know that that only ONE PERSON CLAIMED TO HAVE SEEN A SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Patrolman Joe Marshall Smith, but Smith never said that the man identified himself as a Secret Service agent but had only *shown* him who he was by flashing some kind of ID that in the haste of the moment, Smith mistook for Secret Service ID.

No it doesn’t. And the bullet allegedly found on a stretcher in Parkland has no chain of custody. Or, I should say, the claimed chain of custody is a proven fabrication.

Neither do the dictablets, so why do you care?


Fancy diagrams and faulty reasoning doesn’t beat empirical scientific testing, does it?

Fancy diagrams are part of scientific exposition. which you'd know if you had a background in science.
 
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No. Explain how Myers do when he position Hughes exactly where he does. No, he doesn’t use ”epipolar geometri” when calculating it, because you need to have overlapping film, Zapruder/Hughes in order to do that. There is none.

So, how does Myers come to his conclusion? Simple ordinary line of sight.

You disagree?

Why does it matter? Even if Thomas is 100 percent right with the 11 foot error (which you have yet to prove), McLain STILL COULDN'T HAVE BEEN AT THE MIC 1 POSITION!

Why on earth would I piss away my time debating the minutiae of this when it doesn't change the conclusion at all?

McLain could not have covered the distance he needed to travel in 0.5 seconds, or 1.5 seconds, or even 3 seconds.

Sorry man, like I said, swing and a miss.
 
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So you can provide a source for all the times he was prosecuted for perjury?

Can you site other proven lies he made in other cases complete with the DPD case numbers and the court docket numbers?

If you can't you should shut up lest people think you're lying again.




And yet no rifle was found, and not one of the people standing near the fence reported a shooter, in fact most of those people ran toward the fence to get clear of the gunshots coming from the 6th floor of the TSBD.




No she didn't. She told WBAP-TV she only heard the shots less than an hour after the shooting. Her claim of seeing a gunman on the Grassy Knoll came years later. She's an unreliable witness. Her friend, Mary Moorman stood next to her during the assassination and has a different story that has never changed since 1963.

You fail.




"Thought" they heard shots.



Oh, then your suspect was armed with a Civil War era rifle because nobody's used gunpowder/propellant that smokes since the 1890's.




Had you bothered to actually read anything about the assassination you'd know that that only ONE PERSON CLAIMED TO HAVE SEEN A SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Patrolman Joe Marshall Smith, but Smith never said that the man identified himself as a Secret Service agent but had only *shown* him who he was by flashing some kind of ID that in the haste of the moment, Smith mistook for Secret Service ID.



Neither do the dictablets, so why do you care?




Fancy diagrams are part of scientific exposition. which you'd know if you had a background in science.

In Conspirislandistan, any misstatement of fact later corrected is a lie.

The poster in question is par for the course. If anyone wants an example of how the real world works please refer to my post about the recent shootings at the Youtube campus.
 
some of them seeing the puffs of gunsmoke, some of them confronting anonymous men showing Secret Service ID’s in spite of no Secret Service men on or around the Dealey Plaza until 20 minutes after the shooting ....

Bwhahahah! Bullets use nitrocellulose based propellants (very similar to cordite). These propellants are smokeless!!!

Try again

Fancy diagrams and faulty reasoning doesn’t beat empirical scientific testing, does it?

The reasoning is not faulty and the diagrams aren't fancy but both are based on actual scientific testing

None of the blindfolded test participants mistook echoes from the source of the shots.

This is hardly surprising. People who know they are test subjects and are calmly assessing what they are hearing do not react the same way as people who are startled by unexpected gunfire, fearing for their lives, and crapping themselves as they flee the target zone in panic.

I have just soundly and thoroughly refuted your latest epos, here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12271283&postcount=1912

No, what you did was soundly and thoroughly hand-wave away actual facts using the usual, run of the mill crap you drag up from nutcase conspiracy websites.

You need to get this straight; the "information" you get from your conspiracy echo-chamber sources don't stack up here... they never have and they never will. You will not gain any traction here for your absurd, repeatedly debunked rubbish as long as you continue to source your references from a bunch of nut-jobs.

Furthermore, you STILL have a lot of questions to answer.
 
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Why does it matter?
Because I have not finnished yet. It starting to accumulate, doesen’t it?


Even if Thomas is 100 percent right with the 11 foot error (which you have yet to prove),
No, i do not have to prove anything BUT point out not secured data in Myers proclamations.

How does Myers prove the position of Hughes?

McLain STILL COULDN'T HAVE BEEN AT THE MIC 1 POSITION!
Agree, he need a little bit more of wiggle room to do that. Wait and see.

Why on earth would I piss away my time debating the minutiae of this when it doesn't change the conclusion at all?
Because it is in the minutiae you find the the mistakes made by Myers in his effort to prove that McLain couldn’t be on the bike with the mike.

McLain could not have covered the distance he needed to travel in 0.5 seconds, or 1.5 seconds, or even 3 seconds.

Sorry man, like I said, swing and a miss.
- With a speed of 20 mph he need 5 1/2 seconds to reach the spot.

- With a speed of 21 - 29 mph he need 3 - 5 seconds.

It is now up in almost 3 seconds.

Agree?
 
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McLain STILL COULDN'T HAVE BEEN AT THE MIC 1 POSITION!
Agree, he need a little bit more of wiggle room to do that. Wait and see.

I invite you to see if you can work out why this statement just proved the "acoustic evidence" can no longer be considered as useful evidence of any gunshots.

ETA:
- With a speed of 20 mph he need 5 1/2 seconds to reach the spot.

- With a speed of 21 - 29 mph he need 3 - 5 seconds.

It is now up in almost 3 seconds.

Agree?

You are asking people if they agree he won't be in the right position, because, even with the most favourable numbers, he needs "wiggle room" and is "almost" close enough?
I invite you for a second time, to consider the implications of what you are posting, and why they show the 'acoustic evidence' can not be considered to show gunfire recorded on the open mic.
 
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No. Explain how Myers do when he position Hughes exactly where he does. No, he doesn’t use ”epipolar geometri” when calculating it, because you need to have overlapping film, Zapruder/Hughes in order to do that. There is none.

So, how does Myers come to his conclusion? Simple ordinary line of sight.

You disagree?

No not a simple line of "sight", but many lines of sight as he films McLain turning the corner. It's trigonometry, you did study this in HS? So Hughes is positioned correctly in Myers presentation.

Yes there most assuredly an over lap, didn't you watch the video or read the paper? I stated before and you ignored me both Hughes and Zapruder have a light colored car just about to turn onto Elm.
 
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Then you brought up a phantom Mauser for no reason? Typical CT.

It’s coming.
Along with your comprehensive hypothesis for how JFK was assassinated?

Good. Then tell me whats wrong with it.
Done. CT denial of those explanations doesn't make them go away. Sorry but you'll have to deal with reality here.

Yes I have and no, there is no ”comprehensive debunking” to be found anywhere in them.
Oh yes, there most certainly is. The typical CT mindless denial won't work here.

They are all junk science in the service of the Mighty Church of the Lone Nut.

Nothing else.
Junk science? You'll have to explain that. Be thorough and specific yet concise. As it stands, you've not made a case for that claim so the null hypothesis still stands.

Given your non contribution of substance so far, I’ll take that with a grain ...
The only non-contributor of late has been you. The typical CT child-like denial of repeating "Nuh uh!" over and over won't work here.

Lol.

The liars are here in this thread and you are up there with the champions.

Congratulations.
I'm not sure why you're congratulating me for you being here in this thread but it's on par with the rest of your non-contributions.

Do you know of any CTs who might add value to the thread?
 
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Agree, he need a little bit more of wiggle room to do that. Wait and see.

Because it is in the minutiae you find the the mistakes made by Myers in his effort to prove that McLain couldn’t be on the bike with the mike.

- With a speed of 20 mph he need 5 1/2 seconds to reach the spot.

- With a speed of 21 - 29 mph he need 3 - 5 seconds.

It is now up in almost 3 seconds.

Agree?

No.

What you're attempting to do is stack one unproven assumption on top of another until you feel like you've bought McLain enough time to be in the correct position, at which point you'll declare victory.

The problem is, for your argument to hold water, you need to prove your assumptions and show your work. At this point I'm gifting them to you because it amuses me to watch the mental gymnastics you'll contort yourself into. If any of your assumptions are off, the entire house of cards you've built comes crashing down.

So, once you're done with your mental gymnastics, I'm going to ask you to go back and prove each of your points. You can start by proving the first shot occurred at Z175 by citing evidence other than DOn Thomas's dictabelt analysis. For the record, I did manage to track down which acoustic experts put the shot at Z160. It was Bolt, Beranek and Newman working on behalf of the HSCA.

"The acoustic experts at Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) examined a number of potential matches between the 1963 Dallas police recording and their 1978 test firings. They eliminated all but four sound impulses because some of those impulses were deemed “false alarms” for a variety of reasons (i.e., some failed to score higher than the minimum coefficient threshold of 0.6, some could only have happened under impossible circumstances, etc.).

In the end, the HSCA acoustic experts found (i.e., they concluded) that there were four sound impulses that might be gunshots. [1] Synchronizing the last of the four impulses with the fatal head shot demonstrates that the first suspected gunshot was fired at the equivalent of Z160."


Don Thomas is the only person who puts a shot at Z175. Acoustic experts disagree. Don Thomas is an entomologist, for what it's worth.

Film analysis puts the first shot at Z160 as well, evidenced by multiple reactions on film, strengthened by witness testimony.

So dig yourself out of that hole first.

Next, you'll have to prove that Thomas's placement of Hughes is more accurate than Myers. Myers defends his placement of Hughes here using multiple references, and takes Thomas apart in the process.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.ca/2008/04/photographic-proof-hb-mclain-and_9100.html

Again, this is Dale Myers stock and trade. Digital forensic video analysis is what he does for a living. He's written software for it. Don Thomas is an entomologist.

Dig yourself out of that hole second.

EVen gifting you with multiple assumptions, you still need McLain moving at an average of 41mph over 174 feet to be in the right spot.
 
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You shouldn’t look at ’documentaries’ produced and payed for by the CIA. It isn’t good for you.
Not a rebuttal of any point made in this thread. No evidence provided whatsoever for the assertion about the CIA.
Do you dispute the fact that Max Holland is a long time asset to the CIA?

Still trying to shift the burden of proof, I see. Your assertion, your burden of proof.


You have only one soul. Take care of it.
Religious beliefs have no place in this discussion.
Couldn’t agree more..

Then stop doing it.

Hank
 
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- With a speed of 20 mph he need 5 1/2 seconds to reach the spot.

- With a speed of 21 - 29 mph he need 3 - 5 seconds.

Your guzinta's are way the hell off, or is it some type of Swedish math the world is unaware of?

20 miles per hour works out to 29.33 Feet per second.
 
No.

What you're attempting to do is stack one unproven assumption on top of another until you feel like you've bought McLain enough time to be in the correct position, at which point you'll declare victory.
No. I’m showing point by point how Myers numbers are wrong or open to interpretation = Myers has NOT proved that McLain couldn’t have the time to reach the spot for the first shot.

The problem is, for your argument to hold water, you need to prove your assumptions and show your work.
What ”asumtion” are you talking about?

At this point I'm gifting them to you because it amuses me to watch the mental gymnastics you'll contort yourself into. If any of your assumptions are off, the entire house of cards you've built comes crashing down.
Ah, so now you are saying that you do not agree that the first shot was on Z-175? That Myers have not misplaced Hughes by 11 ft?

I kind of suspected that but heres the thing, I’m not the one needing to prove Myers wrong. You are the one who need to prove Myers right. If Myers proof of McLain NOT being on the spot for the first shot point by point is built on loose asumtions camoflaged as solid science which is junk science, ”epipolar geometry” which is ’line of sight’ and garbage in garbage out computer simulations, well, you are in deep trouble when defending his ”findings”, aren’t you?

That is, I do not need to prove his data wrong, only to prove that they are not founded on exact scientific measurments and therefore NOT proof of his claim.

I’m showing that very small variations in the data, within the boundaries of what is possible, in case by case creates big variations in the end results.

So, once you're done with your mental gymnastics, I'm going to ask you to go back and prove each of your points. You can start by proving the first shot occurred at Z175 by citing evidence other than DOn Thomas's dictabelt analysis. For the record, I did manage to track down which acoustic experts put the shot at Z160. It was Bolt, Beranek and Newman working on behalf of the HSCA.

"The acoustic experts at Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) examined a number of potential matches between the 1963 Dallas police recording and their 1978 test firings. They eliminated all but four sound impulses because some of those impulses were deemed “false alarms” for a variety of reasons (i.e., some failed to score higher than the minimum coefficient threshold of 0.6, some could only have happened under impossible circumstances, etc.).

In the end, the HSCA acoustic experts found (i.e., they concluded) that there were four sound impulses that might be gunshots. [1] Synchronizing the last of the four impulses with the fatal head shot demonstrates that the first suspected gunshot was fired at the equivalent of Z160."


Don Thomas is the only person who puts a shot at Z175. Acoustic experts disagree. Don Thomas is an entomologist, for what it's worth.

Film analysis puts the first shot at Z160 as well, evidenced by multiple reactions on film, strengthened by witness testimony.

So dig yourself out of that hole first.
BBN was forced to wrongly interpret their data and science, by their customer, Robert Blakey, chief of the HSCA.

The stated reason for excluding the third shot from the five secured positives was that, according to Blakey, Oswald couldn’t possibly shoot and reload in one second and that the third shot therefore must have been a ”false alarm”.

This is not science founded on the acoustic evidence. This IS circular reasoning built on preconcived ideas = Oswald the assassin of JFK.

That aside, can you prove that the first shot is in Z-160? No you can’t, it’s at best a guestimate, an asumtion.

You need to prove this in order to prove the acoustic evidence for five shots wrong with your claim that NcLain couldn’t possibly have been in place for beeing the cop on the bike with the mike.

Next, you'll have to prove that Thomas's placement of Hughes is more accurate than Myers. Myers defends his placement of Hughes here using multiple references, and takes Thomas apart in the process.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.ca/2008/04/photographic-proof-hb-mclain-and_9100.html

Again, this is Dale Myers stock and trade. Digital forensic video analysis is what he does for a living. He's written software for it. Don Thomas is an entomologist.

Dig yourself out of that hole second.
Posting a link to where Myers allegedly prove this and that doesn’t suffice. You have to show how he does it here in the thread.

And no, Myers is not a scientist, Thomas is, and a very careful and meticulous one at that.

EVen gifting you with multiple assumptions, you still need McLain moving at an average of 41mph over 174 feet to be in the right spot.
No asumtions needed. Only proof of that Myers are using such instead of science when presenting his numbers.

I will list Donald Thomas observations point by point and thereby prove that:

1. Myers is building a house of cards presented as science.

2. McLain could within reasonable adjustments of Myers data have been on the spot for picking up the first shot. With relative ease.

I’ll be back on this in a stort while.
 
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