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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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No it isn't.

Here is a summary I posted back in February

ALL of the verifiable evidence points to Lee Harvey Oswald firing three, and only three bullets at JFK from the sixth floor of the TSBD, missing with the first, wounding both JFK and Governor Connally with the second, and fatally wounding JFK with the third. That evidence is irrefutable;

1. the gun, a 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano, the only one found
A Mauser turning Carcano turning murder weapon introduced into evidence by Lt. Day, a proven sworn serial liar.

2. the sniper's lair where the gun was found
Wrong. The rifle was allegedly found at the very other end of the sixth floor.

3. the witnesses who saw the gun poking out of the window
A rifle pointing out from the window as well as other withesses seeing other rifles in other windows as well as behind the picket fence on the knoll.

4. the witnesses near the TSBD who heard the shots and stated they came from the TSBD
As well as those near and inside the TSBD stating they heard the shots that came from the direction of the knoll.

5. the witness on the floor directly below hearing the shots, the bolt being worked and the casings landing on the floor above him
As well as the witness Jean Hill seeing the shooter behind the picket fence shooting at JFK, 50 witnesses hearing shots from the knoll, some of them smelling the gunsmoke, some of them seeing the puffs of gunsmoke, some of them confronting anonymous men showing Secret Service ID’s in spite of no Secret Service men on or around the Dealey Plaza until 20 minutes after the shooting ....

6. the fact that no bullets from any other gun were found
Wrong again. No other bullet REPORTED found.

7. the forensics linking the bullets (6.5 x 52mm) and bullet fragments to the gun (a 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano)
No, it doesn’t.

8. the records linking the gun (a 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano) to LHO
No, it doesn’t.

9. the actions of LHO before and after the assassination
No, they don’t.

10. the forensic evidence from JFK's wounds showing the direction the bullet came from behind and with an elevation of about 17°
No, it doesn’t.

There is zero verifiable evidence for any other shooters on the day;
There is solid scientific proof of at least two shooters, probably three, two from behind and one from the front behind the fence on the knoll.

LHO acted alone on that day.
Yes, he apparently did, but he did not shoot JFK, no.

No suppressors,
Maybe, maybe not.

no invisible bullets,
None claimed.

no invisible shooter on the Grassy Knoll.
None claimed.

Furthermore, with regards to the acoustic testing done by the HSCA, those tests CLEARLY showed that listeners can be mistaken about where they hear loud gunshots coming from... it was actually a conclusion the testers themselves came to.
HSCA performed tests to see if (blindfolded) bystanders could have been mistaken hearing echoes instead of the source. None made any mistake.

I argue that this means listeners near the Grassy Knoll were hearing echoes of shots that came from the TSBD.
Theory tested and proven faulty.

Equally, it also means that listeners near the TSBD could have been mistaken, and that the echoes led them to believe the shots were coming from there instead of from the Grassy Knoll;
Theory tested and proven faulty.

as a skeptic,
Lol.

I must accept this,
Not if you adhere to scientific scepticism, you don’t. So far it’s the opposite.

and taken on its own, this is a reasonable conclusion.
No, it’s an insane conclusion.

However I also accept that there are other factors that must also be taken into consideration.

1. There were eye-witnesses who saw the shooter and his gun in the corner, 6th floor window of the TSBD.
As well as other witnesses reporting men with rifles in other windows, yes.

There were witnesses on the Grassy Knoll and behind the stockade fence at the top in it. NOT ONE HEARD OR SAW A SHOOTER.
There were two witnesses behind the fence. One sat inside a control tower and was cut of when he began explaining what he saw and heard. The other guy who saw the shooter with rifle was deaf.

2. We KNOW that three shots must have been fired from the 6th floor snipers lair, because the bullet fragments found match that rifle both in rifling and metallurgically.
No it doesn’t. And the bullet allegedly found on a stretcher in Parkland has no chain of custody. Or, I should say, the claimed chain of custody is a proven fabrication.

This means that if there was a shooter firing from the Grassy Knoll, there would have been HUGE number of people who heard shots coming from two different directions. Only 4% of the witnesses claim this.
How many were asked?

3. If the only shots were fired from the Grassy Knoll (assuming the TSBD sniper's lair was a setup to frame Oswald) then the VAST MAJORITY of ear witnesses would have heard the shots coming from there, even the witnesses near the TSBD. The reason for this is simple acoustical physics... the speed of sound v the distance covered. The main reflective echo source was the large flat, front of the railway overbridge at the other end of Dealey Plaza. The TSBD itself is also a large reflective echo source.

[imgw=500]https://www.dropbox.com/s/o00qb6zmrplyjbz/DP-Acoustics-GNonly.png?raw=1[/imgw]
NOTE: Sound radiates in waves travelling in all directions. This diagram is purely to show path lengths of sounds and not directions of reflected waves

In this diagram, the shooter is at the red X and an example ear-witness near to he TSBD is represented by the green X.

a2 = the path length from an alleged GK shooter directly to the TSBD witness
a1 + b1 = the path length from an alleged GK shooter to the TSBD witness via an echo from the TSBD.

They are virtually the same. If the shots were fired ONLY from the Grassy Knoll, the incident sound of the shots, and their echoes off the TSBD would not only have arrived so close to simultaneously that ear-witnesses could not have told them apart - "b'bang" - but the amplitude of the echoes would have been about the same and many of the ear-witnesses would have been confused about the direction.

a3 + b2 = the path length from an alleged GK shooter to the TSBD witness via an echo from the railway over-bridge.

This is a long path with a delay of about 0.8 - 1 second, and would also appear to come from the direction of the Grassy Knoll (the Knoll and the over-bridge were in the same quarter as viewed from the TSBD

The result of this scenario would have been

i. A huge majority of ear witnesses saying that the shots came from the direction of the Grassy Knoll, and

ii A huge number of people reporting the hearing of shots from two directions.

In both cases, this is not what happened. Now lets have a look what happens when we place the shooter at the corner of the TSBD.

[imgw=500]https://www.dropbox.com/s/yvxfl9x94i2lhrv/DP-Acoustics-TSBDonly.png?raw=1[/imgw]

Now we see that any ear-witness near the TSBD has no echo to confuse them. They hear it coming from the TSBD. The most significant echo they have to deal with is one that travels all the way from the TSBD to the over-bridge on the other side of Dealey Plaza and back, a distance that will attenuate the sound, making the echo detectably quieter. However any ear-witness at the Grassy Knoll still has to contend with considerably louder echoes from the over-bridge.

The result of this scenario is that ear-witnesses near the TSBD are far less likely to be confused about direction (which is why more weight must be placed on what they report) but witnesses near the Grassy Knoll are far more likely to be confused about direction. Furthermore, very few witness would be likely to report two different directions. This is EXACTLY what happened.
Fancy diagrams and faulty reasoning doesn’t beat empirical scientific testing, does it?

None of the blindfolded test participants mistook echoes from the source of the shots.

Ergo, there was only one shooter, and that shooter was in the TSBD and NOT on the Grassy Knoll, and this is fully backed up by all other evidence.
Try again.
 
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since you're not going to read the evidence and realize how wrong you are,
I’m doing my best to keep up with all the nonsense posted, but please tell me if I have missed anything. I promise to refute it asap.

and no one here is going to jump in the conspiracy bandwagon,
I have no illusion of turning any of you into the light, no.

why do you still come here instead of hanging at the places you allegedly change the minds of? No one is keeping you here yet you insist on coming back over and over to insult people.
I’m here to tell you the truth.
 
I do.

Holland is a journalist who has written extensively and honestly about espionage and intelligence collection.
Lol.

The fact that he doesn't spew vengeful paranoid CT rhetoric against the CIA doesn't make him an asset to the CIA, just means he's honest, and at the very least not mentally ill.
You really love your CIA, don’t you?

For the grownups in the room, Max Holland has a blog:

http://www.maxholland.info/

Wiki says he's working on a book about the founding of the Warren Commission.
Lol.

And just for fun, if Holland was a CIA asset then he be the one guy who knows when the first shot was fired based upon CT rules of logic.:D
And he would be the first to lie about it.

Rules of logic. Sanity.
 
Have you ever contributed anything of s u b s t a n c e to this thread?

Really? YOU are asking others to post things of substance?

:dl:


HINT: Gish Gallop and Walls of Text loaded with multiply debunked rubbish gleaned or copy/pasted from CT nutcase websites don't cut it in the "substance" stakes!
 
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Really? YOU are asking others to post things of substance?




HINT: Gish Gallop and Walls of Text loaded with multiply debunked rubbish gleaned or copy/pasted from CT nutcase websites don't cut it in the "substance" stakes!
I have just soundly and thoroughly refuted your latest epos, here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12271283&postcount=1912

I suggest that you man up and respond to my refutation instead of posting pubertal gifs trying to be funny.

You are not. Funny. No.
 
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12242717&postcount=25

April 3, 2018

One of my guys had eyes on
Lives right next to the location. [....]

JFK's assassination is no different, except the people spouting nonsense, half truths and flat out ******** have consistently refused to accept actual facts over ********.

At least the media outlets I noted went back and corrected bad information on original reports...(conspiracist brain)THEY must have got to 'em.(/conspiracist brain)
Do you have any specific complain you want to make? Like compare some specifics?
 
These ones?

If so, I’m having an ongoing discussion on the subject of circus Myers. If you have any more specific questions, ask them, but be specific.

Look at each post the specific questions are there and BTW reference Myers, so they fit right in line.
 
Look at each post the specific questions are there and BTW reference Myers, so they fit right in line.
You asked me to present my reasons for calling Myers ’study’ unscientific and I’m telling you it will be revealed in due course.
 
Boiling this one down, here's what you're saying:

McLain, who WAS THERE, whose transceiver was on, says he was just making the turn onto Elm Street when the last shot was fired. Photographs and film evidence support his claim.
No he doesn’t.

W&A were NOT IN DEALEY PLAZA DURING THE ASSASSINATION, and based their "scientific" work on the assumption that McLain was on Elm Street when all three shots are fired.
No, they dindn’t.

You choose to believe the guys WHO WERE NOT PRESENT DURING THE ASSASSINATION over the man at the center of the mis-applied acoustic science WHO WAS THERE.
No, I don’t.

Totally checking off the boxes for standard CT argument.
No, you don’t.

You have not a clue, do you?
 
You asked me to present my reasons for calling Myers ’study’ unscientific and I’m telling you it will be revealed in due course.

Allow me to translate as I believe I speak a little of this conspiracy theorist dialect.

"I'm completely out of my element discussing this particular facet of the case and don't have a snappy canned response that will dig me out of the hole I'm in.

Rather than attempt to read and digest the evidence I've been presented with, I'll furiously surf my favorite back page conspiracy sites to find something I can plausibly present as a counter argument, even if I don't understand it."

I eagerly await the copy-and-pasted wall of text from maryferrell.com.
 
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So, I take it you will continue your obsession with ”guns” no matter how little relevance it has for the issue at hand?

To flaunt your ’pride’ in your love of, guns?

Rule of So, but it's simply beautiful that you are discussing two murders carried out by the use of firearms, you cite conflicting descriptions of the primary firearm in evidence and you're working the ******** earwitness accounts for all it's worth but object to the subject of firearms being included in this thread.

I know it must be a bitch to find yourself in over your head in subject matter you're ignorant of, but having to fall back on the argument you're asserting is nothing but pure desperation and good-old fashioned CTist entertainment.

As long as you continue to post nonsense I'll happy to point it out.

On to the subject at hand -

Microphones are passive devices. They don't care what the sound source is, they simply transmit a signal. When a sound engineer looks at a VU meter what is indicated is signal level, not what caused the signal.

An oscilloscope signal readout is no different - any similar signal level input is going to be displayed at similar levels regardless of what the input source is and to throw another wild card into the mix, proximity to the microphone can cause signal level variances that are misleading.

In short, the audio recording of the events in Dealey Plaza has very limited evidentiary value and isn't in any way exculpatory evidence for LHO as the shooter.
 
Allow me to translate as I believe I speak a little of this conspiracy theorist dialect.

"I'm completely out of my element discussing this particular facet of the case and don't have a snappy canned response that will dig me out of the hole I'm in.

Rather than attempt to read and digest the evidence I've been presented with, I'll furiously surf my favorite back page conspiracy sites to find something I can plausibly present as a counter argument, even if I don't understand it."
Well, Traxy, big talk closing in on the inevitable doesn’t gonna save you.

So, you agree that Myers 0.5 seconds have transformed to 1.5 second, good.

Next step:

Here is Hughes’ actual position when filming the motorcade on Huoston Street.

BikeWithTheMike_Fig6.jpg


Donald Thomas:

Actually Hughes was in line with the traffic stripe separating the middle from the outer lanes, which can be seen in the segment of the Hughes film of the oncoming motorcade on Main Street. This error results in a displacement of approx. 11 ft. from where Myers places him (see Fig. 6 for orientation).​
11 feet doesn’t seem that a big deal, but it is. A big deal.

Thomas continues:

Assuming that Myers’ line of sight estimates of the cars relative to inanimate objects is done correctly then the 11 ft northward displacement of Hughes must cause the cars to be similarly displaced from actual by about the same distance. If so it lops another 1-1/2 sec off the timeline available to McLain to arrive at the required position, because that is how long it would take the motorcade to move up 11 ft.​

We started with Myers 0.5 seconds, added 1 second for the faulty timing of the first shot and now adding 1.5 seconds for Myers misplacement of Hughes.

That makes it 0.5 + 1 + 1.5 = 3 seconds for McLain to get to the right spot and pick up the sound from the first shot.

Agree?
 
Rule of So, but it's simply beautiful that you are discussing two murders carried out by the use of firearms, you cite conflicting descriptions of the primary firearm in evidence and you're working the ******** earwitness accounts for all it's worth but object to the subject of firearms being included in this thread.
I have stated my position visavi the Mauser turning Carcano turning murder weapon a very big number of times. I do it again for the last time:

- I do not claim it was a Mauser. I claim the identification was internaly conflicting with a proven sworn serial liar, Lt Day doing the introduktion of the rifle into evidence.

THAT is my statement. Nothing else. Get it?

Given that I know that the paper trail of Oswalds alleged purchase of said rifle is a fabrication from beginning to the end, it doesn’t really matter if it was planted before or after it was found. What matters here is the handling of it as an example of many many of how the different police forces handled all of the so called technical/material evidence allegedly found. It is a mess, and it is willfully so.

Last time.

I know it must be a bitch to find yourself in over your head in subject matter you're ignorant of, but having to fall back on the argument you're asserting is nothing but pure desperation and good-old fashioned CTist entertainment.
Keep dreaming dude. You are the one dwelling on the finding of the alleged murder weapon because you love to flaunt your ’pride’ of being somewhat knowledgable in firearms.

Well, I don’t give a crap. Get it?

As long as you continue to post nonsense I'll happy to point it out.
No, you are happy to construe my posting as nonsense. Big difference.

On to the subject at hand -
Wow. At last.

Microphones are passive devices. They don't care what the sound source is, they simply transmit a signal. When a sound engineer looks at a VU meter what is indicated is signal level, not what caused the signal.

An oscilloscope signal readout is no different - any similar signal level input is going to be displayed at similar levels regardless of what the input source is and to throw another wild card into the mix, proximity to the microphone can cause signal level variances that are misleading.

In short, the audio recording of the events in Dealey Plaza has very limited evidentiary value and isn't in any way exculpatory evidence for LHO as the shooter.
You haven’t got a clue do you?

Have you read the HSCA acoustical report?
 
I have stated my position visavi the Mauser turning Carcano turning murder weapon a very big number of times. I do it again for the last time:

- I do not claim it was a Mauser. I claim the identification was internaly conflicting with a proven sworn serial liar, Lt Day doing the introduktion of the rifle into evidence.

THAT is my statement. Nothing else. Get it?
Then you've finally realized there was no Mauser.

Given that I know that the paper trail of Oswalds alleged purchase of said rifle is a fabrication from beginning to the end, it doesn’t really matter if it was planted before or after it was found.
Now you just need compelling evidence for the proof of his purchase being fabricated.

Have you read the HSCA acoustical report?
Yes. Have you read the comprehensive debunking from the various entities that have been pointed out to you so many times? It doesn't seem as if you've read much of anything at all beyond what your one CT website told you. You're continually surprised with information that you read here that you had no clue about. Aren't you mad at your one CT website for lying to you and making you look foolish?
 
Then you've finally realized there was no Mauser.
No.


Now you just need compelling evidence for the proof of his purchase being fabricated.
It’s coming.


Good. Then tell me whats wrong with it.


Have you read the comprehensive debunking from the various entities that have been pointed out to you so many times?
Yes I have and no, there is no ”comprehensive debunking” to be found anywhere in them.

They are all junk science in the service of the Mighty Church of the Lone Nut.

Nothing else.


It doesn't seem as if you've read much of anything at all beyond what your one CT website told you.
Given your non contribution of substance so far, I’ll take that with a grain ...

You're continually surprised with information that you read here that you had no clue about.
Lol.

Aren't you mad at your one CT website for lying to you and making you look foolish?
The liars are here in this thread and you are up there with the champions.

Congratulations.
 
Well, Traxy, big talk closing in on the inevitable doesn’t gonna save you.

So, you agree that Myers 0.5 seconds have transformed to 1.5 second, good.

Next step:

Here is Hughes’ actual position when filming the motorcade on Huoston Street.

[qimg]https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/0b/BikeWithTheMike_Fig6.jpg[/qimg]

Donald Thomas:

Actually Hughes was in line with the traffic stripe separating the middle from the outer lanes, which can be seen in the segment of the Hughes film of the oncoming motorcade on Main Street. This error results in a displacement of approx. 11 ft. from where Myers places him (see Fig. 6 for orientation).​
11 feet doesn’t seem that a big deal, but it is. A big deal.

Thomas continues:

Assuming that Myers’ line of sight estimates of the cars relative to inanimate objects is done correctly then the 11 ft northward displacement of Hughes must cause the cars to be similarly displaced from actual by about the same distance. If so it lops another 1-1/2 sec off the timeline available to McLain to arrive at the required position, because that is how long it would take the motorcade to move up 11 ft.​

We started with Myers 0.5 seconds, added 1 second for the faulty timing of the first shot and now adding 1.5 seconds for Myers misplacement of Hughes.

That makes it 0.5 + 1 + 1.5 = 3 seconds for McLain to get to the right spot and pick up the sound from the first shot.

Agree?


Nope. Not in the least.

First, your math is off. Our initial numbers had McLain with 1.36 seconds to travel 174 feet, not 1.5 seconds. He's at the crosswalk at Zapruder 150, you place the first shot at Zapruder 175. 25 frames with a camera filming at 18.3 frames a second gives you 1.36 seconds.

Second, explain how Donald Thomas comes up with his figures. Specifically, prove with images that Myers was off by 11 feet when positioning Hughes, then prove how that 11 foot difference translates into 1.5 seconds. Show your work as Myers meticulously laid his out.

Lastly, even if you add 1.5 seconds to the 1.36 you started with (which I completely disagree with and which you haven't even begun to prove), McLain STILL wouldn't make the first mic spot. To travel 174 feet in 2.86 seconds means McLain would need to be moving at an AVERAGE of 60.8 feet per second, which translates to over 41 miles per hour! And that's an AVERAGE speed! He's not travelling that fast at the beginning of the 2.86 seconds, rounding the corner at just over 14mph. He wouldn't be going that fast approaching the intersection either, he'd obviously be slowing down prior to the turn. So McLain would have had to gun his motorcycle far past 41mph to make up time where he isn't going fast enough to make his speed average out to 41mph over the 174 foot distance, and brake hard enough that he's approaching an intersection teeming with spectators at a safe speed...and he'd have to do it all within 2.86 seconds...

So your critique of Myers is a flop. You did exactly what I thought you would and quoted the exact site I knew you'd quote, AND YOUR NUMBERS STILL DON'T WORK! :D

Swing and a miss pal. Care to try again?
 
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