pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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Aside from the fact that his mic wasn't stuck open.
Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge
- Thread starter BStrong
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Aside from the fact that his mic wasn't stuck open.
Before I continue, do you agree that the first shot comes at Z-175? If not, explain and show the scientific evidence for your thesis.
Show me how this is a ”fact”.
Stalking, harassing, lying, trolling ... day and night, what a, ’life’ ...
I hope they give you candy and a nice bowl to eat from.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
This particular CT fallacy is called switching the burden of proof. You won't be allowed to do that.
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No, I don't, but I've shown that even if I concede that point and place the first shot at Z175 for arguments sake, McLain STILL would have been nowhere near the first microphone position in time.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
Switching the burden of proof. You need to show that his mic was stuck open and where he was. You've failed to do so.
when will you finally be doing this for your conspiracy theory and debunking the facts already in evidence with document-able facts of your own?
He's done one better. The info he's provided has actually disproven his own theory by showing there was no possible way McLain could have been where he needed to be.
HSienzant
Philosopher
The same way you do. The testimony of Fritz, Weitzman, and Boone.
No, it's argued he lied. You now a mind-reader?
Says the man who never admitted to a mistake ever. For the rest of us, pencils have erasers. Can you explain why?
No, they didn't. We saw above that Krusch himself found markings on the shells that the staff at NARA did NOT point out. That destroys your argument that NARA pointed out all the markings.
You haven't shown this. And in fact, it's readily apparent that the "NARA marker" hides some of the shell in some of the photos, and a complete 360 degrees on each shell isn't shown.
You keep insisting this is true, but it's not proven. If you had read the thread, you would not be surprised how this went. I told you previously how it went in the past, and how it would play out, and you ignored the advice to read the thread to see the problems with your arguments. All this is in the thread.
We both agree on the evidence. You just dispute everything pointing to Oswald.
There's nothing wrong with the evidence on either level.
- Day marked the shells and testified to that. They meet the chain of custody required.
- It's your pretense that if there are questions as to the authenticity, that evidence would be inadmissible. It wouldn't. It would go to the jury to consider, and to determine how much weight to put on the evidence of the shells.
There is so much wrong here I scarcely know where to begin. The weapon was always Oswald's Carcano bearing the serial number of C2766.
While two men (Boone and Weitzman) did initially say it was (or appeared to be) a Mauser, neither man handled it. And the Carcano Italian weapon is built upon the Mauser design, so the Carcano is simply a knock-off of the better known German Mauser. So it's understandable that some would mistake the lesser-known knock-off for its better-known cousin.
And let's note that you claimed you were very well-read in this subject, so none of the below should come as a surprise to you. And any demands for the precise source of any of this [quoting it word-for-word, for instance] should be easy for you to locate, so any demands to provide all of the evidence for each point will be ignored by me:
And besides, all of this is in the thread, and most of it [and the source] was already spelled out for you in great detail:
- Film of the rifle in the TSBD by Thomas Alyea shows a Carcano [HSCA photographic panel]
- Photos of the rifle by J.C.Day in the TSBD show a Carcano [HSCA photographic panel]
- Photos of the rifle by newsmen outside the TSBD show a Carcano [HSCA photographic panel]
- Photos of the rifle by J.C.Day in the DPD Crime Lab show a Carcano [HSCA photographic panel]
- Photos of the rifle by newsman in the DP Station show a Carcano [HSCA photographic panel]
But wait, there's more! We not only can establish what make and model it is, we can establish who owned it:
- The rifle bore the serial number of C2766 [J.C.Day testimony, crime lab photos]
- The rifle with the serial number of C2766 was shipped to PO Box 2915 [William Waldman testimony, Klein's business records]
- The PO Box 2915 was owned by Lee Harvey Oswald [Harry Holmes testimony, PO business records]
- The order form, the envelope, and the money order used to purchase the rifle were in Oswald's handwriting (Cadigan testimony, Cadigan exhibits, HSCA handwriting panel]
That's not enough? There's more!
- Photographs of Oswald holding the rifle in question were taken with the Oswald's camera to the exclusion of all other cameras in the world [Marina Oswald testimony, FBI analysis, HSCA photographic panel]
- Fibers from the blanket where it was stored in the Paine garage were found in the rifle [FBI analysis]
- Oswald's fingerprint and palmprint is on the rifle on the trigger guard and under the barrel, respectively [Vincent Scalise affidavit, J.C.Day testimony]
- Oswald was seen with a large paper sack the morning of the assassination by two witnesses [Wes Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle testimony].
- A large sack was recovered from the Depository in the corner by the Sniper's nest that bore Oswald's print [Studebaker testimony, FBI analysis].
- Numerous witnesses saw a man resembling Oswald in the Sniper's Nest Window [Brennan, Fischer, Edwards, et. al.].
Still not convinced? There's more!
- Ballistic evidence ties the rifle with the serial number C2766 found in the Depository to the three shells, two large fragments, and one nearly whole bullet recovered from the depository, the limo, and the hospital, respectively [FBI analysis, HSCA analysis]
Still not convinced it was Oswald's rifle found on 11/22/63 in the Depository?
On the afternoon of 11/22/63, police arrived at the Paine residence and asked Mrs. Paine if Oswald owned a rifle. She said no, but translated the question for Marina. Marina answered yes, and directed the police to the blanket in the Paine garage. She said Oswald's rifle was within the blanket. But when a policeman picked up the blanket, it hung limp. It contained no rifle. Where was Oswald's rifle, and why would it be missing on the day Oswald was seen with a long package?
Are you going to continue to pretend none of this is evidence, or that you've never seen this evidence, while also continuing to pretend you're well-read on this subject?
Are you going to pretend there was a "Mauser turned Carcano turned murder weapon"?
That claim is a load of horse manure.
Hank
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I’m not sure of what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that in order for the recording to pick up rifle shots there had to be a mike on the right spots at the right time to make this possible? Of so, yes, that is the point with the test shots with arrays of microphones around the Houston/Elm intersection, to find out if there was a mike at the right spots at the right time to pick up the sounds.
Are you disputing Thomas’ reading of the scientific data? BBN/W&A was under tremendous pressure to conform to the officialdom conveyed by their boss, Robert Blakey, so they where extremely conservative in the presentation of the conclusions from their investigations. But, the science is still there.
BBN stated that the shot from the knoll had a 50/50 probability of being a positive and therefore needed additional sonar analysis to get more precise data and probability coifficient.
1. No, it was not 50/50, it was more than 95% (0.8) for being a positive.
2. The sonar analysis gave a less than 1/100 000 for being a false positive.
BBN/W&A discussed the issues of cross talk, discountinous recording and timing in their report and, no, the Decker cross talk doesn’t prove that the five impulse patterns had to have been recorded a minute after the shooting.
Instead, the Fisher cross talk, the one closest to the actual event, strengthens the acoustical evidence, synchronizing the five patterns exactly in the correct time frame for being recorded at the Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting.
In fact, all the so called ”debunkings” of the acoustical evidence, has instead corroborated it further, making it an unasailable scientific fact.
Of course they didn’t, they were dependent on their masters for most of their scientific funding an orders of their products.
They were very careful trying to tread the fine line between scientific integrity and pragmatic politics.
They were no fools.
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pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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McLain had his siren on as he went to the hospital. It isn't in the recording. Thus, it could not have been his.
In fact, the siren that is heard on the recording shows very clearly that the open mike was at the Trade Mart.
Do the math.
There were like 3 sirens heard. The first siren starts about 2 minute and no seconds after the time where the third shot was fired, hit a max about 7 seconds later, and then fades, but another comes, and then another. Overall, the sirens last about 33 seconds, with about 15 seconds between when it starts and when it ends.
Given the loudest point is where the sound passes the mic, we can figure that the first siren hit the mic about 2:07 after the shooting.
The distance from Elm St in front of the grassy knoll to the trade mart exit, according to mapquest, is about 2 miles (.2 miles to the on ramp, .2 miles on the on-ramp on Stemmons Freeway and 2 miles to the exit).
Assuming that it takes some time to respond to the events and navigate the on-ramp, let's say it takes 40 seconds to the bridge over Continental (0.6 miles from the site of the shooting; the car would have had to average about 55 miles an hour in that stretch). From Continental, it is 1.7 miles to Market Center Blvd in front of the Trade Mart. To get there in 87 seconds, it would mean that the lead vehicle (presumably a cop with his siren blaring) would be driving an average of 70 miles an hour.
I don't remember if they exited on the Market Center Blvd or if they went on to Medical District Drive, but I presume they stayed on path. That gives them time to fly down Stemmons going 90 and slow down as they exit past the Trade Mart and still average 70 mph.
Now, the alternative explanation is that McClain caught up AND PASSED the motorcade. He got so far in front that the sirens were so far behind him that they couldn't be heard on the mic. Where did he get that far ahead? Based on expected speeds, he would have had to been passing them on the off ramp to the Trade Mart?
He may have caught up with the lead car of the motorcade, but he never passed them. Did he get to the hospital well ahead of everyone else? I've never heard anyone say that. He clearly was there by the time they were pulling bodies out of the car, but he didn't need to be there first. But for the sirens to make any sense, he had to be there well ahead of everyone else.
Of course, even if he didn't have his siren on (he says he did, but hey he is "mistaken", right?), it's not like there weren't more sirens blaring. The reports from Dealey Plaza is that there were sirens everywhere. If his mic were open, it would have picked that up.
But it wasn't. The open mic was sitting at the Trade Mart, and was not anywhere near Dealey Plaza.
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Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12.
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pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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Exactly. I think the first shot was even earlier than Z160 as is normally presumed. There is reason to believe that it didn't deflect off the tree branches but off the overhanging pole.
It could be wrong, and maybe it's closer to Z160, but regardless, neither is helping.
How do you KNOW this?
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Whether the first shot was fired prior to Z133 (as Max Holland claims), somewhere between Z155 and Z160 (as the Warren Commission and others have said), or at Z175 (as claimed by manifesto), McLain could not have been anywhere near the spot he would have needed to be.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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How do you know he didn't?
I have his statement that he had it on. You have no basis for denying it.
Moreover, it matters not whether his was on, because there were sirens all over the place in Dealey Plaza. He would have heard them.
And even if his mic was on, he was not in the position needed.
It wasn't McLain. And since McLain could not have been the source of the open mic in the correct position, the acoustic evidence tells us nothing.
You shouldn’t look at ’documentaries’ produced and payed for by the CIA. It isn’t good for you.
You have only one soul. Take care of it.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Not a rebuttal of any point made in this thread. No evidence provided whatsoever for the assertion about the CIA.
Religious beliefs have no place in this discussion.
Hank
I know he did not have it on from the recording made by his stuck microphone before, during and after the shooting at the Dealey Plaza. The probability for this NOT being the case is so ridiculously low it begins to close in on long heralded scientific truths like the one that the sun allways rises in the east.
1. See above.
2. At the time trivial episodes is almost impossible to remember correctly 15 years after the event.
3. McLain had a proven bias conforming to the official story of the lone nut Oswald.
What?
How do you KNOW he wasn’t?
See above.
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