BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
Any ones that you choose to reject in favor of a earwitness report of "I heard it" as evidentiary fact.
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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge
- Thread starter BStrong
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Any ones that you choose to reject in favor of a earwitness report of "I heard it" as evidentiary fact.
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest."
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
Something I live by. Now you try it. Start with answering Hank about the WCR and established evidence.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
This list...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12269473&postcount=1768
...which has been posted many times in a number of formats in this thread and it predecessors, by Hank, myself and others, and which you continue to ignore, and repeatedly ask for.
No, you do not. Neither do, ”Hank”.
This is NOT a list of consilience being applied on the assassasination of JFK.
Where is the list?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Yes, it is a list of consilience being applied on the assassination of JFK. You are just ignoring the facts because they don't fit the fantasy world in which you live.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
In my minds eye, this is what I envision when a Ctist gets close to having their foot nailed to the floor over "Truth" as opposed to "faith":
Start at approximately 2:10
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
In a court of law, I have been established as an expert for the purpose of various issues regarding firearms.
You have yet to display competence in any field relating to the subject matter.
Thanks for playing.
If this is a list of consilience allegedgely showing that Oswald killed JFK, conciliense doesn’t show that Oswald killed JFK. As I said, it’s a misnomer, a eufemism for lack of evidence and abundance of faulty reasoning.
A fancy word for crap.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
It's not much different than dealing with a sovereign citizen wingnut.
Unless their name is spelled in capital letters in a certain color ink in a room with an non-Admiralty flag with someone that knows the secret handshake no laws apply to them.
All the videos on YT end up pretty much the same:
Ow! That hurts! I DO NOT CONSENT! I DO NOT NOT CONSENT! (sound of tazer) OWWWW! handcuffs on, in the back seat of the unit.
In this thread we get all the amusement but none of the resolution.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Let's recap for those just tuning in:
Manifesto started off by claiming the rifle was not a Carcano, but Mauser, yet never identifies which model Mauser. He then backs away stating he never claimed it was a Mauser. Says identification by officers who never handled the weapon somehow draws the entire investigation into question. Cites questionable chain of evidence.
He moves onto claiming the shots came from the Grassy Knoll, but cannot say where exactly, and when it is pointed out that JFK would have only come into view at the exact moment of the headshot he blows it off saying it was a trained sniper (which there were no sniper schools in continuous operation until 1966).
When his lack of basic fire arms knowledge is revealed he moves onto the HSCA acoustical boondoggle as if all of the following reports which debunked it never happened. When presented with documented evidence of DPD Officer McLain's actual location making the HSCA invalid, he pretends not to see anything, and continues to claim it is scientific proof. Yet the DPD dictaphone material has the most questionable chain of evidence of all the assassination artifacts.
He states that the US governmenr cannot be trusted, and that the CIA is evil citing a long list of things that had nothing to do with the assassination as if they did. One of the CIA projects he calls evil was the Domestic Operations Division (DODS) which was tasked with influencing domestic news papers and book publishers, and when it is pointed out that the DODS was JFK's idea he drops the subject.
Why this is fun:
This is a trip down memory lane. If you ever wondered what it was like to sit in a bar in 1986 arguing about the assassination with the biggest drunk in the room - this is it.
Prediction:
He'll go away claiming victory like the rest of them have done.
Manifesto started off by claiming the rifle was not a Carcano, but Mauser, yet never identifies which model Mauser. He then backs away stating he never claimed it was a Mauser. Says identification by officers who never handled the weapon somehow draws the entire investigation into question. Cites questionable chain of evidence.
He moves onto claiming the shots came from the Grassy Knoll, but cannot say where exactly, and when it is pointed out that JFK would have only come into view at the exact moment of the headshot he blows it off saying it was a trained sniper (which there were no sniper schools in continuous operation until 1966).
When his lack of basic fire arms knowledge is revealed he moves onto the HSCA acoustical boondoggle as if all of the following reports which debunked it never happened. When presented with documented evidence of DPD Officer McLain's actual location making the HSCA invalid, he pretends not to see anything, and continues to claim it is scientific proof. Yet the DPD dictaphone material has the most questionable chain of evidence of all the assassination artifacts.
He states that the US governmenr cannot be trusted, and that the CIA is evil citing a long list of things that had nothing to do with the assassination as if they did. One of the CIA projects he calls evil was the Domestic Operations Division (DODS) which was tasked with influencing domestic news papers and book publishers, and when it is pointed out that the DODS was JFK's idea he drops the subject.
Why this is fun:
This is a trip down memory lane. If you ever wondered what it was like to sit in a bar in 1986 arguing about the assassination with the biggest drunk in the room - this is it.
Prediction:
He'll go away claiming victory like the rest of them have done.
Edited by Agatha:
Do not alter user names in an attempt to insult
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BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
Now that you have accurately described your side of the discussion we can get to the facts.
How does earwitness jive, half-assed early reports and wish fulfillment have to do with the established evidence as determined by the WCR?
Hail the chief.
Edited by Agatha:
Removed breach of rule 0 and rule 12
Regarding the Mauser turned Carcano turned murder weapon. I have NEVER claimed it proven that the found weapon was a Mauser. My claim is that the identification of the rifle was ambivalent, which is just another sign of incompetence, willful or not, of those involved in the securing of technical evidence after the assassination of JFK and later on, the murder of officer J.D. Tippit.
In a long long long row of questionable handling of such. Willful, or not.
Edited by Agatha:
Removed breach of rule 0 and rule 12
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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/infojfk/jfk6/timing.htm
That timeframe was first suggested by the Warren Commission as it encompasses several reactions, most notably John Connally who snaps to the right when he hears what he thinks is gunfire coming from over his right shoulder.
The first reaction by any of the limousine occupants to a severe external stimulus begins to occur in the vicinity of Zapruder frames 162-167.* At this time, Connally is looking to his left, when his head begins a rapid, sudden motion to the right. In quantitative terms, he turns his head approximately 60 (deg) to his right in one-ninth of a second (a rate equivalent to a 540 (deg) rotation per second). He pauses momentarily and then executes a further 30 (deg) turn to his right, within an eighteenth of a second (again, a rate equivalent to a 540(deg )rotation per second). This initial rapid motion, in which Connally has apparently turned Iris head to look behind him, is accompanied during the next approximately 20 frames by a more gradual 60(deg) shift to the right of his upper torso. Although it is apparent that none of the limousine occupants has been shot at the time that Connally initiates this movement, the Panel considers these actions to be particularly significant because they were consistent with his Warren Commission testimony that he turned in response to having heard the first shot and was struck almost immediately afterwards.
Max Holland's study puts the first shot even earlier than that.
The House Select Committee posited a shot at frame 158 due to a jiggle in the film at that point and Connally's "severe" reaction beginning 2 frames later.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
No it isn't.
Here is a summary I posted back in February
ALL of the verifiable evidence points to Lee Harvey Oswald firing three, and only three bullets at JFK from the sixth floor of the TSBD, missing with the first, wounding both JFK and Governor Connally with the second, and fatally wounding JFK with the third. That evidence is irrefutable;
1. the gun, a 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano, the only one found
2. the sniper's lair where the gun was found
3. the witnesses who saw the gun poking out of the window
4. the witnesses near the TSBD who heard the shots and stated they came from the TSBD
5. the witness on the floor directly below hearing the shots, the bolt being worked and the casings landing on the floor above him
6. the fact that no bullets from any other gun were found
7. the forensics linking the bullets (6.5 x 52mm) and bullet fragments to the gun (a 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano)
8. the records linking the gun (a 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano) to LHO
9. the actions of LHO before and after the assassination
10. the forensic evidence from JFK's wounds showing the direction the bullet came from behind and with an elevation of about 17°
There is zero verifiable evidence for any other shooters on the day; LHO acted alone on that day. No suppressors, no invisible bullets, no invisible shooter on the Grassy Knoll.
Furthermore, with regards to the acoustic testing done by the HSCA, those tests CLEARLY showed that listeners can be mistaken about where they hear loud gunshots coming from... it was actually a conclusion the testers themselves came to. I argue that this means listeners near the Grassy Knoll were hearing echoes of shots that came from the TSBD. Equally, it also means that listeners near the TSBD could have been mistaken, and that the echoes led them to believe the shots were coming from there instead of from the Grassy Knoll; as a skeptic, I must accept this, and taken on its own, this is a reasonable conclusion. However I also accept that there are other factors that must also be taken into consideration.
1. There were eye-witnesses who saw the shooter and his gun in the corner, 6th floor window of the TSBD. There were witnesses on the Grassy Knoll and behind the stockade fence at the top in it. NOT ONE HEARD OR SAW A SHOOTER.
2. We KNOW that three shots must have been fired from the 6th floor snipers lair, because the bullet fragments found match that rifle both in rifling and metallurgically. This means that if there was a shooter firing from the Grassy Knoll, there would have been HUGE number of people who heard shots coming from two different directions. Only 4% of the witnesses claim this.
3. If the only shots were fired from the Grassy Knoll (assuming the TSBD sniper's lair was a setup to frame Oswald) then the VAST MAJORITY of ear witnesses would have heard the shots coming from there, even the witnesses near the TSBD. The reason for this is simple acoustical physics... the speed of sound v the distance covered. The main reflective echo source was the large flat, front of the railway overbridge at the other end of Dealey Plaza. The TSBD itself is also a large reflective echo source.
[imgw=500]https://www.dropbox.com/s/o00qb6zmrplyjbz/DP-Acoustics-GNonly.png?raw=1[/imgw]
NOTE: Sound radiates in waves travelling in all directions. This diagram is purely to show path lengths of sounds and not directions of reflected waves
In this diagram, the shooter is at the red X and an example ear-witness near to he TSBD is represented by the green X.
a2 = the path length from an alleged GK shooter directly to the TSBD witness
a1 + b1 = the path length from an alleged GK shooter to the TSBD witness via an echo from the TSBD.
They are virtually the same. If the shots were fired ONLY from the Grassy Knoll, the incident sound of the shots, and their echoes off the TSBD would not only have arrived so close to simultaneously that ear-witnesses could not have told them apart - "b'bang" - but the amplitude of the echoes would have been about the same and many of the ear-witnesses would have been confused about the direction.
a3 + b2 = the path length from an alleged GK shooter to the TSBD witness via an echo from the railway over-bridge.
This is a long path with a delay of about 0.8 - 1 second, and would also appear to come from the direction of the Grassy Knoll (the Knoll and the over-bridge were in the same quarter as viewed from the TSBD
The result of this scenario would have been
i. A huge majority of ear witnesses saying that the shots came from the direction of the Grassy Knoll, and
ii A huge number of people reporting the hearing of shots from two directions.
In both cases, this is not what happened. Now lets have a look what happens when we place the shooter at the corner of the TSBD.
[imgw=500]https://www.dropbox.com/s/yvxfl9x94i2lhrv/DP-Acoustics-TSBDonly.png?raw=1[/imgw]
Now we see that any ear-witness near the TSBD has no echo to confuse them. They hear it coming from the TSBD. The most significant echo they have to deal with is one that travels all the way from the TSBD to the over-bridge on the other side of Dealey Plaza and back, a distance that will attenuate the sound, making the echo detectably quieter. However any ear-witness at the Grassy Knoll still has to contend with considerably louder echoes from the over-bridge.
The result of this scenario is that ear-witnesses near the TSBD are far less likely to be confused about direction (which is why more weight must be placed on what they report) but witnesses near the Grassy Knoll are far more likely to be confused about direction. Furthermore, very few witness would be likely to report two different directions. This is EXACTLY what happened.
Ergo, there was only one shooter, and that shooter was in the TSBD and NOT on the Grassy Knoll, and this is fully backed up by all other evidence.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
On the subject of the reliability of early reporting
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12242717&postcount=25
April 3, 2018
One of my guys had eyes on
Lives right next to the location. Didn't hear shots but the LE response + helicopters caught his attention. Hwy. 380 closed down for a short time. Local reports have the shooter as female, shot and killed boyfriend, wounded others, shot herself.
For the Ctists, as the event unfolded the Seattle Post Intelligencer had this up:
Woman shoots and wounds 4 at YouTube before killing ... - Seattle PI
https://www.seattlepi.com/.../Police...t-12802836.php
7 hours ago - SAN BRUNO, Calif. (AP) — A woman opened fire at YouTube headquarters Tuesday, setting off a panic among employees and wounding at least four people before fatally shooting herself, police and witnesses said. Officers and federal agents swarmed the company's complex in the Bay Area city of San ...
At approximately one hour in - approximately 1:19 pm.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Further, early local reports:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article207843409.html
Victims of a shooting at YouTube’s San Bruno, California, headquarters are being taken to Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital, named for the Facebook founder.
Three patients had been taken to the San Francisco hospital following the incident, KRON reports.
Other patients were transported to nearby Stanford Hospital, CNN reported.
No individuals were treated at Stanford.
Further:
https://www.wired.com/story/youtube-shooting-spree-injures-4-kills-1/
Dianna Arnspiger, who works in YouTube media operations, said she saw the shooter from a patio on the building’s second floor. Arnspiger said she had never seen the woman before and did not believe she worked at YouTube. “It was a big gun. I know guns, because my father was in law enforcement,” she said. Arnspiger heard a couple of shots before she saw the woman and then heard a couple more. Arnspiger said she was “doing OK, doing alright, feeling fortunate to make it out and that everyone I know is safe.”
It was a compact 9mm manufactured pistol by Smith & Wesson. "Big" is not a term in any way associated with this particular firearm.
And further, but at least they now label is misinformation:
Misinformation spread wildly on social media in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, when reports of the shooter's identity were still unclear. The shooter was alternately described by some media as a 30-year-old white woman and by other eyewitness accounts as a man in full body armor.
The underlined above I heard for myself on local radio.
My guy that went to the scene got put on crowd control, and I went over there at approximately 1630 to check on him. By then most of the "facts" about this or that either misunderstood by talking heads or made up out of whole cloth had been cleared up by officers at the scene, but the media train was still rolling full tilt boogie with half truths and ******** long after I went to bed - as late as the next day TV talking heads still hadn't figured out that the reason no news was coming out of Stanford Hospital about the victims being treated there was the fact there were no victims there.
JFK's assassination is no different, except the people spouting nonsense, half truths and flat out ******** have consistently refused to accept actual facts over ********.
At least the media outlets I noted went back and corrected bad information on original reports...(conspiracist brain)THEY must have got to 'em.(/conspiracist brain)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12242717&postcount=25
April 3, 2018
One of my guys had eyes on
Lives right next to the location. Didn't hear shots but the LE response + helicopters caught his attention. Hwy. 380 closed down for a short time. Local reports have the shooter as female, shot and killed boyfriend, wounded others, shot herself.
For the Ctists, as the event unfolded the Seattle Post Intelligencer had this up:
Woman shoots and wounds 4 at YouTube before killing ... - Seattle PI
https://www.seattlepi.com/.../Police...t-12802836.php
7 hours ago - SAN BRUNO, Calif. (AP) — A woman opened fire at YouTube headquarters Tuesday, setting off a panic among employees and wounding at least four people before fatally shooting herself, police and witnesses said. Officers and federal agents swarmed the company's complex in the Bay Area city of San ...
At approximately one hour in - approximately 1:19 pm.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Further, early local reports:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article207843409.html
Victims of a shooting at YouTube’s San Bruno, California, headquarters are being taken to Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital, named for the Facebook founder.
Three patients had been taken to the San Francisco hospital following the incident, KRON reports.
Other patients were transported to nearby Stanford Hospital, CNN reported.
No individuals were treated at Stanford.
Further:
https://www.wired.com/story/youtube-shooting-spree-injures-4-kills-1/
Dianna Arnspiger, who works in YouTube media operations, said she saw the shooter from a patio on the building’s second floor. Arnspiger said she had never seen the woman before and did not believe she worked at YouTube. “It was a big gun. I know guns, because my father was in law enforcement,” she said. Arnspiger heard a couple of shots before she saw the woman and then heard a couple more. Arnspiger said she was “doing OK, doing alright, feeling fortunate to make it out and that everyone I know is safe.”
It was a compact 9mm manufactured pistol by Smith & Wesson. "Big" is not a term in any way associated with this particular firearm.
And further, but at least they now label is misinformation:
Misinformation spread wildly on social media in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, when reports of the shooter's identity were still unclear. The shooter was alternately described by some media as a 30-year-old white woman and by other eyewitness accounts as a man in full body armor.
The underlined above I heard for myself on local radio.
My guy that went to the scene got put on crowd control, and I went over there at approximately 1630 to check on him. By then most of the "facts" about this or that either misunderstood by talking heads or made up out of whole cloth had been cleared up by officers at the scene, but the media train was still rolling full tilt boogie with half truths and ******** long after I went to bed - as late as the next day TV talking heads still hadn't figured out that the reason no news was coming out of Stanford Hospital about the victims being treated there was the fact there were no victims there.
JFK's assassination is no different, except the people spouting nonsense, half truths and flat out ******** have consistently refused to accept actual facts over ********.
At least the media outlets I noted went back and corrected bad information on original reports...(conspiracist brain)THEY must have got to 'em.(/conspiracist brain)
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RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
Thank you for your admission to being dishonest. We already had plenty of evidence of it though.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
I love my girl, I love my cat.
Firearms are tools. They have been part of my professional life for quite possibly more years than you've been on this planet.
The fact that my knowledge of the subject matter makes it inconvenient for you to throw firearms jive into this mix is your problem. You are far from the first CTist in this thread to come to grief throwing out the "gun" card, not just with me, but with more than a few posters on this thread over the years.
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When soundly beaten on every issue rised, Axxmeuin300 resorts to right out lying of his opponents statements. THAT is a sign of poor sportmanschip and severe intellectual dishonesty.
No, I have never claimed that the rifle was a Mauser. My claim is that those officers that found the rifle, in written and signed statements said it was a Mauser. This in turn doesn’t prove it was a Masuer but it proves that the identification of the alleged murder weapon was anything but clear cut without ambiguities. Proof of this is that here we are 54 years later still arguing the provenance of the murder weapon. This is ONE little example of a long long row of fudging, changed stories, broken chain of custodies, disapearing evidence, fabricated evidence ... of a free floating ’murder investigation’ where the actors seemingly keep it so floating until the situation stabilizes, the patsy being silenced, and the ’fix’ starting to set in.
In doing this the DPD had a long and proud tradition to fall back on with DA Henry Wade at the helm. Bragging of how many innocent people he had sent to the chair. This takes ’culture’ to do with impunity during almost 40 years.
See above.
Can’t I? The fatal head shot that killed JFK was determined by W&A to have been fired from a rifle positioned at the corner of the picket fence precisely at frame 313 in the Zapruder-film, with a probability of 1/100 000 of being wrong.
In science, that is called, PROOF.
Her is the oscilloscopic graph of the sound from the shot:
The first echo cluster is from the neo Classical stone structures between TSBD and the picket fence, closest to the mike on the bike. The second cluster is from the five high buildings surronding Dealey Plaza, further away from said mike.
There is 99 999 reasons against 1 to accept this scientifically established conclusion. Do you like the odds?
Another lie. I have NEVER said this. You are a shameless corrupt lier. I said that this is a weak argument compared to the scientific evidence. It was not instantly visible, there was a little bit of time to aim and, Greer was on the brakes slowing down the limo guaranteeing that if the first shot had missed, the assassin would have had an even more easy target with an almost stand still limo.
As for ”trained sniper” no one knows the level of skills involved.
I have NEVER claimed or pretended to be an expert on firearms and no, this lack of personal expertise has in no way led me astray in any matter pertaining to firearms. Luckily, there is expertise available on both sides of the argument.
So, again, lies, strawman and ad hominem.
Thats good. You are exposing yourself for who you really are and no, it ain’t pretty. No.
I have read them and no, there is no ”debunking” of anything of the acoustic evidence in any of them
None. Nil.
I’m discussing this issue at this very moment, so hush hush, do not celebrate any victory before everything is on the table. And, yes, I’m enjoying myself.
It’s easy to be on the side of truth. It’s a tremendous force of nature.
So, what’s your contention? That evil conspiracy theorists has fabricated the recording? Really? How on earth did they do that?
Are you saying that it can? Is it wise? Sure?
Yes, the CIA has a long list of unspeakable atrocities in its long bloody history. It’s like a cancer metastasizing into every little corner of civil society. Corrupting, murdering, torturing, brainwashing, assassinating, experimenting, destroying decensy all over the world as well as at home.
Truman regretted that he gave his go ahead to its inception until the day he died. A month after (to the day) the assassination of JFK he published an article in the Washington Post demanding that the CIA should be closed down. Allen Dulles tried to make him retract the article but he refused. He was a very good friend of JFK and his family.
I have NEVER commented on this. Another LIE.
Like in ”fun evil”?
Some ”memory”. A trip down the slippery slope lying bastard lane, is a more truthful description.
But truth isn’t really your thing, is it. You have other more ”fun” priorities, don’t you.
Again, I have point by point exposed you for the LIER that you are, but you do not care do you?! It isn’t in your blood to be truthful, honest and straight talking.
You are something else, who likes to have ”fun”, aren’t you ...
Edited by Agatha:
Edited to correct username in quote
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