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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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When evaluating evidence, it is important to ask not only "What is this evidence of?" but also "Why is it evidence of that?" With this in mind, let's take a look at the Secret Service drivers who manifesto has discussed.

The death of Thomas Shipman is only evidence of a conspiracy to murder JFK if Shipman himself was murdered. If it was just a heart attack, then his death had nothing to do with a conspiracy. Here is what we know: he died at Camp David and the coroner claimed that he died of a heart attack (according to his obituary). This means, if his death points to conspiracy, the conspirators must have had a method of poisoning a member of the president's Secret Service detail at Camp David, a method that appeared to be a heart attack. You must also believe they used this method successfully and got away with it.

This raises an important question: why would a conspiracy with that kind of access and ability not use the same method to kill the president? Why resort to a shooting in broad daylight in front of hundreds of witnesses? You might respond that a thorough autopsy, which the president would surely have gotten, would reveal the truth. Yet you are already raising suspicion about the actual autopsy: specifically, claiming the doctors were ordered not to perform certain procedures (e.g. probing the wounds). If JFK had been poisoned, they would only have needed to prevent whichever tests would reveal the specific poison they used.

Further, Shipman's death is only evidence of a conspiracy to kill JFK if the conspirators needed him out of the way for some reason. You have proposed they wanted Greer in the driver's seat during the assassination, which is probably the most likely reason a conspiracy would murder Shipman (another possibility is Shipman was onto them). This can only mean they did not trust their snipers to hit JFK while he was moving. They wanted someone who would slow the limo to a stop and sit there until JFK was dead. If the conspiracy had good enough snipers, it would not matter who drove the limo, which needed to slow down to make the turn onto Elm street anyway. If the conspirators were willing to murder a Secret Service agent at Camp David just to get control of JFK's driver, they had no faith that their snipers could do the job.

But now think about what you're claiming Greer agreed to: he agreed to drive an open-topped limo that multiple snipers were going to shoot at. Multiple snipers that the conspirators did not trust to be accurate. He risked not only getting caught, but getting shot by the conspiracy, just for the chance to kill JFK.

Now the question of why they resorted to a shooting becomes much more serious. For your theory to work, Greer explicitly agreed to take part in killing JFK. So a man who was guarding JFK had agreed to actively help kill him. The conspiracy now had all kinds of access to the president, but the best they could come up with was a shooting in broad daylight from public places they did not control in front of hundreds of witnesses. A shooting from multiple directions, though for some reason they needed to claim shots came from only one direction. This is absurd. There is no coherent theory here.

But maybe the conspirators were completely insane. Even though it would have been thousands of times riskier than necessary, did it happen anyway? Are Greer's actions consistent with being in on the assassination? If he was in on it, the plan must have been that he would slow down so the snipers would have a good shot. If he had slowed down before the first shot, that might have been suspicious because we would have to wonder why he slowed down.

In reality, he only slowed down after the shooting started. Alvarez in his study of the Zapruder film concluded "The heavy car decelerated suddenly for about 0.5 sec (10 frames), centered at about frame 299, reducing its speed from about 12 mph to about 8 mph." (p. 825) Kennedy was first hit at frame 223, so this is well after the shooting started. We can also consider this list of testimony compiled by a conspiracy theorist who suspects Greer. The following witnesses explicitly claim he slowed down only after the first shot was fired: 5, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 20, 25, 27, 31, 47, 50, 51, 52, 58. None of the witnesses explicitly say he slowed before the first shot; the rest either just say Greer slowed/stopped at some unspecified time or say that he accelerated after the third shot, without saying he slowed down.

Here is what makes more sense: Greer noticed something was happening, but he was not sure what. He looked behind him, slowing down because now he was driving without looking where he was going. He looked back for approximately two seconds before seeing the president shot in the head. Then he sped away immediately because now he knew an assassination attempt was in progress (or because now Kellerman was shouting at him to do so).

You claim Greer's only job was to drive away at the first sign of danger. Does this mean he was required to slam on the gas every time he noticed something odd, without trying to figure out what was happening first? Every bang, every scream, every sudden move, he had to floor it and speed away? Maybe he should have, but it is not surprising he didn't. Greer spent a couple seconds looking around trying to figure out what was happening before speeding away. This is not suspicious.

Given that any conspiracy theory involving Greer is incoherent, combined with the fact that his actions fit better with an innocent explanation, we can safely dismiss the possibility he was involved.
 
If you have a problem of accepting HSCA’s acoustical findings you have to specific .

PORTION OF DR. JAMES BARGER TESTIMONY TO THE HSCA

Mr. FITHIAN. While they are doing that, let me ask you sort of the central
question.

Is it your conclusion that you proved that there were four shots?

Dr. BARGER. No.


Mr. FITHIAN. With regard to the groupings of shots what do you prove then?

Dr. BARGER. As regards the grouping of the shots, we demonstrated with
high confidence that *if * there are four shots, we demonstrated the times
at which they occurred, and the intervals between them were described by
Mr. Cornwell, 1.6 seconds, was it 5.9, and 0.5.

Let me repeat the important part for you:

"Is it your conclusion that you proved that there were four shots? "
"No"

That's from Dr Barger's testimony to the HSCA.

So we can dispense with the notion that the acoustic evidence, even if we accept it, proves the conspiracy. According to the guy who did the tests.

But what else do we find out?

Mr. CORNWELL. In addition to the tests that Dr. Barger conducted, did
you need anything else, any other information in order to follow this
process?

Mr. WEISS. Well, yes. We needed, in order to perform this prediction
process, we needed to know a number of things. First, we needed to know
where the sources of sound were.

Now, of course, that means we had to have some idea of where a shooter
might have been, and by all indications, he had to be someplace up on the
grassy knoll, and we had that area taken care of. We had to know, of
course, also where the reflecting surfaces were. That is for a particular
assumed position of the microphone, where the major reflecting surfaces
were. So we had to refine our understanding of how the echoes were
produced in that case. We had to know approximately where the motorcycle
was, because although this technique is simple and straightforward, it can
become pretty tedious if you don't know approximately where or reasonably
well where the motorcycle is, and you can assume it to be anywhere in the
Plaza. So we had to have some idea where it was. And what we assumed was
that it was approximately in the neighborhood of that microphone that gave
the strongest matching pattern in Dr. Barger's experiment between a shot
from the knoll and the impulses audible on the police tape recordings.

What a minute. What is the evidence for the open mike being McLain? Oh that's right, THEY ASSUMED IT!

And notice the entire case: IF you assume there are 4 shots, and IF you assume there is an open mike in a specific location, then the four shots are at given times.

But what happens if the mike is NOT in that position? Can you you use the acoustic evidence for 4 shots?

According to Dr Bargar, the answer is NO

This is why I keep telling you, your mistake is that you are assuming your conclusion. If you assume the mike is at a specific position and that there are 4 shots, then then the acoustic analysis tells you when those shots must have happened.

So, where was the open mike?

As has been noted, McLain wasn't where he was supposed to be for the acoustic evidence to work. Here is a description of where McLain was

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jaynes/index.htm

He was hanging back on Houston when the shots were fired.

Now, I know manifesto will just deny it, and accuse McLain of being wrong or lying, lying about hanging back and stopping on Houston and lying about turning on his siren (btw, that is magic bullet that destroys the possibility of McLain being the one with the open mike). But note that Jaynes actually talks about how Mack acknowledges this problem and just asserts (with no basis) that Mack was running ahead of where he should be. McLain contends the opposite, that he stopped, and didn't make it to the position needed. But hey, if we just claim that McLain is lying, then it all works again. And since we have to assume there is a 4th shooter, McLain MUST BE lying.

Or, it could all be nonsense.
 
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No, I still wonder why they settled for photographs of the evidence and through away the evidence.

You have a perfectly plausible explanation for this?

Well the first thing that comes to mind is that since these were records from a legitimate business that did nothing criminal, they didn't want to cause that business problems by confiscating records that they probably needed for day to day operation.

These were microfilm records. Paper copies are easier to work with.

As has already been pointed out, the microfilm records already were photographs of the original paper. Before computers, microfilm was a common method used to reduce the volume of retained records. It was a lot cheaper to store rolls of microfilm than hundreds or thousands of filing cabinets full of paper. Any given roll of microfilm would have had hundreds of documents not needed by the investigation and needed by the business. Confiscating the microfilm would have benefited nobody.

Besides, had they retained the microfilm, you still would have complained that they didn't retain the original paper. Had they retained the original paper, you would have claimed it was fake, unless of course, you imagined that it supported your conspiracy theory.
 
You haven’t produced anything of value lately, Hank. So, you have to wait a little while until I have a little bit of time to spare. Your confused babbleing have a very low priority at the movement.

Be patient.

You know, I've read both Hank's posts and yours. One of those two posters posts consistently could be described as "confused babbleing (sic). They are not Hank's.
 
Five shots heard when only three are taken?

Easy peasy!

1. Bang (LHO fires his first shot)

2. Bang (Echo of LHO's first shot)

3. Bang (LHO fires his second shot)

4. Bang (LHO fires his third shot + plus coincident echo of LHO's second shot)

5. Bang (Echo of LHO's third shot)

ETA: I should add that I do not believe the audio "shows" that five shots were heard... but even if it did, then see above..
Wrong. Not five shots heard. Five rifle shots detected on the stuck microphone recording. By the two at the time world leading research teams on ballistic acoustics. They provided the sonar systems to US Navys nuclear submarines, developed US Armys systems for in real time locate snipers in urban warfare, among other things. So, yes, they knew what they were doning. That could not be said of any of those, and they are many, trying to ”debunk” their findings, particaipants in this ”thread” most certainly included.

So, try again.
 
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Said the spokesman for the Cult of Conspiracy.

Here are a few reasons I stopped believing in a JFK conspiracy:

I went to Dallas, visited the 6th Floor Museum,
Runned by the city of Dallas and with a ”representative from the CIA”, yes.

stood on the sidewalk below the Grassy Knoll,
Telling you, what?

and touched the white picket fence.
Magic touchings of the fence, telling you what?

It was immediately clear that everything I had read about the assassination was wrong.
Interesting. And all the people who have made the same visit coming to the opposite conclusion, that the shooting was from two or more shooters? Same visit to same place giving two contrary conclusions?

It was an EASY SHOT from the 6th Floor. It was a shot anyone could make. CTists authors LIE about the difficulty of the shot.
I do not lie when I say that the experts trying to replicate the three shots with the renovated alleged murder weapon, did not manage to do it.

And, they would certainly not manage to do it according to HSCA’s acoustical findings. It would have been 100% impossible for one shooter making the FOUR shots from behind with that close between the shots, not using an automated weapon.

That is why chief of HSCA, Blakey, lied to Congess and the American people that one of the detected shots from behind the limo HAD TO be a false positive. To tell the truth would have severely challenged the ”truth” that Oswald killed JFK at all, let alone doing it by himself without co conspirators.

Blakey forced his two acoustical research teams to ’accept’ the ’four shots solution’, claiming his Congressional overseers maby would accept 4 shots = two shooters with Oswald firing the killing shot, but certainly not accept 5 shots = three shooters not knowing who fired the fatal shot killing JFK.

That was not enough, though. Blakey also forced the investigators to clock wise move the shot from in front in order not to fit as the killing shot.

Blakey thus stated political reasons for distorting the data for the stated reason of making his overseers accept a conspiracy, stating that this was streching the limits of what they could accept. To present the truth = 5 shots, 4 from behind, 1 from in front being the fatal shot, would have been impossible for them to accept, according to Blakey.

No matter what the science says.

The Carcano is a capable rifle, not the piece if junk CTists make it out to be.
Some of them maybe, but certainly not the exemplar allegedly used by Oswald when allegedly killing JFK.

There is no consistent element to any of the conspiracies other than "Oswald didn't do it",
Wrong. Lots of people who belive in a conspiracy behind the killing of JFK still belive that Oswald was guilty.

no consistent suspect or set of suspects.
There are actually two crimes committed:

1. The conspiracy to kill JFK.

2. The cover up of that conspiracy.

The cover up is a proven fact. In a functional democracy this fact would lead to a reopening of the case giving full mandate to see everything and hear everyone of interest to the investigation and I’m 100% sure that would lead to the solution of the case. Maybe not every little detail, but enough to conclude who was guilty of the assassination and the following cover up.

I’m afraid this would only happen if some kind of revolution took place. But, who knows. Hope ...

No consistent scenarios of the assassination itself, no consistent locations of shooters, no consistent number of extra shots. The biggest clue of stupidity is there is no consistent motivation for why JFK was killed, or why it was done that way.
See above.

The only consistent facts since 1963 point to Lee Oswald as the soul actor in the assassination.
Wrong. The only consistent facts since 1963 point to Lee Harvey Oswald as the framed patsy in the assassination.

That is a proven fact.
 
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Five shots heard when only three are taken?

Easy peasy!

1. Bang (LHO fires his first shot)

2. Bang (Echo of LHO's first shot)

3. Bang (LHO fires his second shot)

4. Bang (LHO fires his third shot + plus coincident echo of LHO's second shot)

5. Bang (Echo of LHO's third shot)

ETA: I should add that I do not believe the audio "shows" that five shots were heard... but even if it did, then see above..
Wrong. Not five shots heard. Five rifle shots detected on the stuck microphone recording.

First of all: The authors of the study are a lot less convinced it details five shots than Manifesto.

However, this is a good chance for Manifesto to understand why he is wrong.

Manifesto, can you explain how one could tell, from the impulses identified on the tape, if the sound reaching the microphone was a gunshot, an echo reflected from a surface, or indeed any other sound outside of the human hearing range?
 
By the way Manifesto: was it common practice in the 1960s for the FBI to take copies of documents as evidence?

I’m guessing you worked out the significance of the question and want to avoid it.
Again. I do not care of the ”common practice”, I care of the evidence in the most important political assassination of the 20th century.

Why keep (the alleged) photographs of (the alleged) evidence, but through away (the alleged) evidence?

Do you have a plausible, not insane, explanation of this?
 
First of all: The authors of the study are a lot less convinced it details five shots than Manifesto.

However, this is a good chance for Manifesto to understand why he is wrong.

Manifesto, can you explain how one could tell, from the impulses identified on the tape, if the sound reaching the microphone was a gunshot, an echo reflected from a surface, or indeed any other sound outside of the human hearing range?
Have you read the investigation?
 
Best case scenario: You chare Hanks fanatical religious conviction as a member of the Mighty Church of the Lone Nut.

Worst case scenario: Well ... you Tell me.

Well, I do share Hank's belief that the available evidence strongly supports the idea that Oswald, and only Oswald shot JFK.

I also note that Hank lays out the evidence supporting that position in a careful methodical way with careful citation of sources, whereas you offer very little or no evidence, and engage in a lot of disingenuous claims of ignorance as well as dismissing evidence you don't like with silly objections, or ignore it entirely.

In short, Hank makes the case for his position very well, and you make the case for yours quite poorly.
 
I do not lie when I say that the experts trying to replicate the three shots with the renovated alleged murder weapon, did not manage to do it.
You'll need to provide evidence that firing three shots from a Carcano and one of them landing in a head sized object, one landing in a body sized object and one missing at less than 100 yards is impossible.

And, they would certainly not manage to do it according to HSCA’s acoustical findings. It would have been 100% impossible for one shooter making the FOUR shots from behind with that close between the shots, not using an automated weapon.
Which officer's mic was open, manifesto? You still have the burden of proof there.

Some of them maybe, but certainly not the exemplar allegedly used by Oswald when allegedly killing JFK.
LOL. You're welcome to put that to the test with a similar M/C rifle.

Wrong. Lots of people who belive in a conspiracy behind the killing of JFK still belive that Oswald was guilty.
What is your comprehensive hypothesis for how JFK was assassinated?

There are actually two crimes committed:

1. The conspiracy to kill JFK.

2. The cover up of that conspiracy.
Now you just need to provide compelling evidence for both of those. When will you be starting?

The cover up is a proven fact.
Cover up of what? That is the fallacy of "begging the question".

In a functional democracy this fact would lead to a reopening of the case giving full mandate to see everything and hear everyone of interest to the investigation and I’m 100% sure that would lead to the solution of the case. Maybe not every little detail, but enough to conclude who was guilty of the assassination and the following cover up.
And what is your comprehensive hypothesis for how JFK was assassinated? Surely the total number of brain cells of all the CTists in the world can come up with something? Anything?

I’m afraid this would only happen if some kind of revolution took place. But, who knows. Hope ...
Revolution would require CTists putting forth some effort and getting out of their moms' basements. We both know that isn't going to happen, don't we?

Wrong. The only consistent facts since 1963 point to Lee Harvey Oswald as the framed patsy in the assassination.
And yet the null hypothesis is that LHO was the only assassin of JFK using his M/C from the sixth floor of the TSBD. We both know that null hypothesis has never been challenged. Certainly not by any internet defense attorney CTists.

That is a proven fact.
LOL. Which offer's mic was held open?
 
Well, I do share Hank's belief that the available evidence strongly supports the idea that Oswald, and only Oswald shot JFK.
As long as you share this core belief, everything Hank says, goes.

I also note that Hank lays out the evidence supporting that position in a careful methodical way with careful citation of sources,
As long as you share Hanks core belief in Oswalds guilt, of course you ”note” this.

whereas you offer very little or no evidence, and engage in a lot of disingenuous claims of ignorance as well as dismissing evidence you don't like with silly objections, or ignore it entirely.
Of course you belive this since doing the opposite would challenge you in your core religious belief in Oswald killing JFK.

In short, Hank makes the case for his position very well, and you make the case for yours quite poorly.
No. Best case scenario: Hank confirms your core belief in Oswald as the lone assassin of JFK and therefore your core identity as a member of the Mighty Church of the Lone Nut.

Convert.
 
Do you have a plausible, non-insane explanation for how JFK was assassinated?
I have found no mistake in HSCA’s acoustical investigation, stating that 5 rifle shots was fired in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. 4 shots from behind the limo, and 1 shot from in front (picket fence on the knoll) being the fatal.

If you have issues with these findings, be my gusest.

But, be specific with specific reference to relevant parts of said investigation and conclusions.

I’m not a mind reader.
 
First of all: The authors of the study are a lot less convinced it details five shots than Manifesto.
Are they really? Explain.

However, this is a good chance for Manifesto to understand why he is wrong.
Ah, at last.

Manifesto, can you explain how one could tell, from the impulses identified on the tape, if the sound reaching the microphone was a gunshot, an echo reflected from a surface, or indeed any other sound outside of the human hearing range?
The method, procedure and conclusions are presented in the reports of the investigations. If you have issuses with any of this, present them. But, be specific, with reference to the relevant part of the report.

Explain how the investigators confused a rifle shot with the echo from a rifle shot. With reference to their reasoning, methods and findings.

Be specific.
 
Answer the question that was asked, manifesto. The null hypothesis is waiting for you.
JFK was killed with at least one bullet to the head fired from a rifle behind the picket fence in front to the right of him.

The probability for this NOT being so is P = 1/100 000.

You beg to differ?
 
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