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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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A bit of a nit-pick, you quoted what manifesto posted and did not include my comments

Yes, that's why in the part I quoted I said, "Quoting manifesto"

I thank you for parsing through his long screeds of nonsense, and that's why I used your post. I wasn't going to find that crap in his.
 
The one with his palm print on.
The one he was photographed holding.
The one he purchased with the fake ID he planned to escape with?
The one which fired the fatal shots to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world?
The one that left gun oil in the paper sack he made?
The one his wife knew to be his?
That rifle?

When I hear denials about Oswald owning the weapon, I think of this part from Austin Powers



Quartermaster Clerk: One Swedish-made penis enlarger pump.
Austin Powers: That's not mine.
Quartermaster Clerk: One credit card receipt for Swedish-made penis enlarger pump signed by Austin Powers.
Austin Powers: I'm telling ya baby, that's not mine.
Quartermaster Clerk: One warranty card for Swedish-made penis enlarger pump, filled out by Austin Powers.
Austin Powers: I don't even know what this is! This sort of thing ain't my bag, baby.
Quartermaster Clerk: One BOOK, "Swedish-made penis Enlarger Pumps And Me: (This Sort of Thing Is My Bag Baby)", by Austin Powers.
Austin Powers: Aaah.
Quartermaster Clerk: Just sign the form.

Seriously, all we are missing from JFK and the gun is a book called, "Carcano Rifles and Me: This Sort of Thing is My Bag, Baby" written by Lee Harvey Oswald. But it's better, because we have pictures (and we don't have pictures of Austin Powers using the Swedish-made Penis Enlarger)
 
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When I hear denials about Oswald owning the weapon, I think of this part from Austin Powers





Seriously, all we are missing from JFK and the gun is a book called, "Carcano Rifles and Me: This Sort of Thing is My Bag, Baby" written by Lee Harvey Oswald. But it's better, because we have pictures (and we don't have pictures of Austin Powers using the Swedish-made Penis Enlarger)

It ranks up there with the "back and to the left" idiocy.
 
You are telling me that Oswald owned the alleged murder weapon (Carcano) in the assassination of JFK.

I wonder if you have any evidence supporting this claim. Do you? Show me.

If you can't grasp how wrongheaded these demands of yours are, you're not going to get anything from this list. We are not going to get into a food fight with you over competing "claims." If you want that sort of thing, there's alt.assassintation and other lists that cater to such free-for-alls. This is a different sort of list.

Here's why. Most of us are not "claiming" anything. We have spent years subjecting the official investigations and the various JFK assassination theories to skeptical scrutiny and have arrived, for the most part, at the conclusion that the Warren Commission and later confirming investigations, despite their inevitable flaws, got it right about Oswald's guilt. That collective conclusion--and only that--is the null hypothesis for purposes of this list.

That means you should stop demanding that we present our "claims." We do not have the burden to present or defend claims regarding the null. You, however, have the burden of presenting evidence for your claim that the null is wrong, and it's going to require more than flaunting piecemeal, abstract doubts that, for example, Oswald owned the Carcano (when the evidence strongly shows he did--look it up) or that it was a Carcano and not a Mauser that was found in the TSBD (Dallas law enforcement explained this understandable mistake--look it up).

So let's begin afresh, okay? We don't have the burden to prove the null. By definition, the null is the current hypothesis that represents, for most of us on this list, the best explanation of all the evidence. You, on the other hand, do have the burden to disprove the null, if you feel you have sufficient credible evidence to overturn it. Get to work, and stop needling Hank.
 
To start with, before even getting into the paper trail connecting Oswald to that rifle, he was photographed posing with it in his backyard. His wife testified that he owned a rifle, that the rifle he owned is in those photographs, and that she took those photographs. They were authenticated by a panel of photography experts working on behalf of the HSCA.

Gouges in the stock of the weapon in the photographs matched gouges in the stock of the weapon recovered in the depository.

He will ignore all that or hand-wave it away. He doesn't want the evidence except to argue against it. He's already made up his mind and you shouldn't attempt to confuse him with the facts.

Hank
 
If you can't grasp how wrongheaded these demands of yours are, you're not going to get anything from this list. We are not going to get into a food fight with you over competing "claims." If you want that sort of thing, there's alt.assassintation and other lists that cater to such free-for-alls. This is a different sort of list.

Here's why. Most of us are not "claiming" anything. We have spent years subjecting the official investigations and the various JFK assassination theories to skeptical scrutiny and have arrived, for the most part, at the conclusion that the Warren Commission and later confirming investigations, despite their inevitable flaws, got it right about Oswald's guilt. That collective conclusion--and only that--is the null hypothesis for purposes of this list.

That means you should stop demanding that we present our "claims." We do not have the burden to present or defend claims regarding the null. You, however, have the burden of presenting evidence for your claim that the null is wrong, and it's going to require more than flaunting piecemeal, abstract doubts that, for example, Oswald owned the Carcano (when the evidence strongly shows he did--look it up) or that it was a Carcano and not a Mauser that was found in the TSBD (Dallas law enforcement explained this understandable mistake--look it up).

So let's begin afresh, okay? We don't have the burden to prove the null. By definition, the null is the current hypothesis that represents, for most of us on this list, the best explanation of all the evidence. You, on the other hand, do have the burden to disprove the null, if you feel you have sufficient credible evidence to overturn it. Get to work, and stop needling Hank.

But all this aside, the answer is, what evidence would be enough to show that Oswald owned the gun?

We have the order form made out in his alias and handwriting.
We basically have the packing slip from the factory in Italy that shows that they sent the gun with the same serial number as the one found in the SBD to his PO box.
We have pictures of him holding the gun
We have his wife confirming that she took the pictures of him holding the gun.

What else could you need to convince you that he owned the gun?

The fact that manifesto is playing dumb about "what evidence is there?" shows that he's not serious.
 
But all this aside, the answer is, what evidence would be enough to show that Oswald owned the gun?

We have the order form made out in his alias and handwriting.
We basically have the packing slip from the factory in Italy that shows that they sent the gun with the same serial number as the one found in the SBD to his PO box.

Conflation there: We have the documentation that shows the rifle bearing the serial number C2766 was shipped from an exporter in Italy to a wholesaler in the USA, other documentation that shows the rifle bearing the serial number C2766 was sold to Klein's Sporting Goods, and then the documentation that shows the rifle bearing the serial number C2766 was shipped to Oswald's PO Box 2915. And of course, there is documentation showing the rifle bearing the serial number C2766 was recovered in the Depository after the assassination.

We have pictures of him holding the gun
We have his wife confirming that she took the pictures of him holding the gun.

What else could you need to convince you that he owned the gun?

The fact that manifesto is playing dumb about "what evidence is there?" shows that he's not serious.

Which is why I'm not my usual accommodating self and citing the evidence and patiently walking him through my argument (yes, Manifesto, see the thread for examples). I made up my mind about him back in January of 2016.

Hank
 
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But all this aside, [...]

Thanks, pgwenthold, but I don't think this is easily or wisely put aside. Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to see you and Hank, if you wish, respond to these demands and re-proffer evidence that, as we know, has been out there for more than 50 years--evidence of which manifesto must surely be aware if he's read as much as he claims. But I think you're being very generous in playing his game. And the rules of that game allow him religiously to ignore what you say and to retort glibly with superficial, faith-based generalities.
 
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Still waiting...

You owe me citations on what affidavit Weitzman actually signed, what affidavit Boone actually signed, and the source of the claim that Roger Craig saw a Mauser, and how many years after the assassination he first made that claim.

You come on here asking for evidence, ignore the thread history, and you can't support the claims you make the first time you are challenged for your sources. Don't you find that ironic? I do.

Hank

PS: This is my third of five requests for this information. After that, if you can't support the FIRST random claim you're challenged on, why should we presume you can support any of them?
I have already suplied the information: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12252687&postcount=772

Weitzman: Signed affidavit - https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf

Boone: Written letter - https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf

Craig: Filmed interview - https://youtu.be/-RGZPa8FdbA

Tell me if you are missing something that have any bearing on my original argument.


That said, do you have any evidence supporting your bald claim of Oswald Killing JFK? It is a very serious accusation.

Show me.
 
Ok Manifesto, if you are not opposed to reading the discussion... why not start on page one, of the first thread, and just read the various cases made for or against Oswald?
You did read my answer?

”Wrong. I do not oppose any dialouge, I oppose the claim that Oswald killed JFK.”

Where do I say that I’m not opposed to reading the whole thread?

Explain to me why others have to search out, link to, or restate the argument that has become the null?
If you make a claim you have to supply the evidence. If you are not ready to do that or if you have no evidence, do not make the claim.

It’s really that simple.
 
That said, do you have any evidence supporting your bald claim of Oswald Killing JFK? It is a very serious accusation.

It's not a serious accusation, not now anyway, after more than 50 years and so much evidence pointing to Oswald and to no other person in such quantities. This "serious accusation" business is just melodramatic hyperbole on your part: an attempt rhetorically to seize the moral high ground. What is serious is your unsupported claim to be able to exonerate the wretched, homicidal waif Oswald despite the evidence against him. Once again, you have the burden.
 
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That said, do you have any evidence supporting your bald claim of Oswald Killing JFK? It is a very serious accusation.

Show me.

Wasn't it the WC that determined Oswald's guilt? Why are you calling the null hypothesis a "bald claim"? That just sounds foolish.

Do you agree?
 
”...I oppose the claim NULL HYPOTHESIS that Oswald killed JFK.”
You'll need to back up your claim with compelling evidence because as you say:

If you make a claim you have to supply the evidence. If you are not ready to do that or if you have no evidence, do not make the claim.

It’s really that simple.
 
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Tell me if you are missing something that have any bearing on my original argument.

How about Weitzman's 1964 Warren Commission testimony and his 1967 television interview in which he acknowledged his mistake?
 
You are telling me that Oswald owned the alleged murder weapon (Carcano) in the assassination of JFK.

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Oswald WITH his Carcano AND his .38 revolver he used to kill Tippit.

Case closed.
 
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I used to think that was the case too, then I went to Dallas and stood in front of the fence. Suddenly those "grainy pictures" reveal a lot more detail
Show me. After that, Tell me why the majority of interviewed witnesses report shots from the knoll, if they clearly saw that nobody was there shooting.

than CTists think.
You love calling people names, don’t you. Why is that? Low self-esteem? You are trying to compensate?

It's also a lousy place to make a shot from...you know, if you're a professional.
Not if it were a triangulation. Somebody had painted yellow marks on the south curb on Elm Street that day. Nobody knows why or to what purpose. The Umbrella man starts pumping his umbrella up and down during the shooting. Greer is slowing down the limo after the first shot and continue doing that until he sees JFK’s head taking a fatal blow, then he speeds away. Say that there were no fatal hit when it happened. A couple of seconds more and the limo would have completely stopped.

Sitting duck.

Zapruder AND HIS ASSISATANT were the two closest people to the fence. There's no way neither of them could not have heard a rifle being fired, and no way neither wouldn't have looked to their right to see the shooter.

For a theory to be believable is has to be grounded in reality.
They were focused on the president and saw nothing else, but they heard shots coming from ”behind” them. The area discussed are behind/to the right of them.

Oh good, we're back to ear-testimony again.
I did respond to this blatant lie:
INO WITNESSES CLOSE TO THE TSBD POINTED TO THE GRASSY KNOLL AS THE SOURCE OF THE GUNSHOTS!
Should I not point out lies when I see them?

The echo problem has been addressed multiple times already.
Has it? What is the consensus? Everybody that heard shot from anywhere than TSBD actually heard echoes?

What did the other 300+ people see and hear?
I was specifically adressing the blatant lie that nobody in the vicinity of TSBD reported shots from the area around the knoll.

There were ca 600 people on Dealey Plaza when JFK was killed. Ca 200 was interviewed by authorities. Ca half of them got asked on the positions of shooters and lots of identified witnesses standing closest to the event were ignored. There are also cases of manipulation of witnesses and accusations of falsifying reports.

Still, the majority pointed (and run up to) to the knoll as the source of the shots = conspiracy.

Sure it is. First, it assumes the witness is truthful. Second, it assumes the witness is clear headed.
No it doesn’t. Every witness and testimony has to be evaluated on its own merits.

There are a lot of innocent people doing hard time and or are sitting on death row thanks to faulty, inaccurate sworn testimony.
Absolutely a big problem, but that doesn’t lend itself to wholesale denunciation of ALL witness testimony as worthless. It says that you have to be careful when evaluating what is said, by whom and when it is said.

What, do you mean like the small problem of the 6.5x52mm round made for the Carcano? You've never wondered why it says "Carcano" on the box of cartridges? Why doesn't it say "Carcano and Mauser"?

Your lack of firearms knowledge is what is hanging you here.
You missunderstood. I wonder WHAT STUDIES you are refering to.

Gosh, you know, when a couple of pathologists cut open a dead body to determine the cause of death.
Ah, you are refering to the autopsy performed by Humes, Bosswell and Finck at Bethesda the night of the assassination. Good.

In this case they found an entry wound in the upper thorax
No, they found an entry wound in the back between the spine and the shoulder blade. Ca 4 cm deep.

that exited through the throat,
No, they did not track the bullet through the body. They asumed it exited from the throat where the Parkland doctors described a ”small, round, punctuated entrance wound” before they performed a tracheotomy in it.

and they found a SINGLE entrance wound in the back of the skull which exited out the side front.
Correct. The entrance wound was positioned on the External Occipital Protuberance ca 4 cm from the midline and at the lowest part of the (right) back of the head. They also observed a trail of very small fragments in the x-rays of the lower part of the right brain. They also found a big gaping wound in the right back of the head.

Ca 15 years later the HSCA’s medical panel saw something completely different:

- Entry wound at the top of the back of the head, in the cowlick area in the midline ca 11 cm above where the autopsy had located it. That is a lot of realestate!

- The trail of small bullet-fragments were now observed in the top of the right brain, not the lower part.

- There where NO big gaping wound i the right back of the head. Not a scratch.

- A big round thin bullet fragment with the exact diameter as a Carcano-bullet was now found in the x-rays. Ca a centimeter beneath the NEW entrance wound and on the outside of the cranium. Something missed by the x-ray-team at Bethesda the night of the assassination?? The single biggest peace of metal inte JFK’s body. Missed by the x-ray-doctors?

- The newly found bullet fragment had to have been very neatly slized of the middle of the bullet that first had to have been split in two before entering the cranium leasing the slized of fragment on the outside of the cranium, travel through the head and landing, both of the pieces, close together on the floor beneath the front seats. Some feat.

So, who do you believe?

Almost 50 surgeons, doctors, nurses, forensic pathologists, forensic photographers, x-ray-technicians, from three hospitals, Secret Service agents and FBI agents vs. a few x-rays and a few autopsy-photographs?

It’s your call.

Fragments recovered from the brain matched the fragments recovered from the car.
How did they match and where is the secured chain of custody?

Coincidence? Had JFK been shot without his knowledge in WWII by a lone Italian marksman on a Japanese destroyer? And the bullet chose to continue its flight in the hot Dallas sun?
What?

The fiber evidence from JFK's jacket, shirt, and necktie all show a single missile entering from behind and exiting the front.
No, it doesn’t. It shows a bullet hole in the back and a scissors cut in the tie/shirt.

What they heard was dependent on where they stood. The acoustics of Dealey Plaza have been scientifically mapped a few times
Yes, and HSCA performed blind tests with subjects guessing where from a rifle shot originated. Everyone got it right everytime.

Do you have other tests with different results?

When you're a conspiracy theorists
You really love to call people names, don’t you. Feels good inside of you, doesn’t it?

all facts not in line with your theory are lies,
Wrong. Facts are facts until proven otherwise. It’s really that simple.

and all lies supporting your argument are "Science", so it becomes hard to tell what's real
Name ONE lie.

for CTers.
Ah, here you are again, calling people names. You really like doing that, don’t you. Makes you feel a little better, doesn’t it?

Bad excuse for good arguments, though.
 
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