Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[kellyb]

There may be benefits to a much larger number of people to such a modification, not just trans people, but other as well.

A lot of people don't like being naked or even partially unclothed in front of other people. So, yeah.

 

[cullennz]

This just seems to be an argument against minority rights in general. It works well for all of them. Why change marriage and discomfort the majority of people for the minority of people who think interracial marriage is OK? Why bother with those annoying ramps when so few people need them? Please give me some mathematical answers for when minority rights are acceptable and when discomforting the majority wins out?

Have you thought about getting into amateur dramatics?

You do very good hyperbole.

Maybe you could just think about both situations and a way of a happy medium rather than getting uber sensitive

 

[Belz...]

Have you thought about getting into amateur dramatics?

You do very good hyperbole.

Strawman theatre.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, of course that wasn't what Rolfe was saying. Would you expect PonderingTurtle to actually describe what anyone else was saying correctly? It just doesn't happen.

I think it is a fair description of exactly how Rolfe classified trans people in her first post. See

If "gender" is just another word for personality type it's a fairly harmless conceit, but when it leads to the opening of women's protected spaces to male-bodied individuals purely on their say-so that they "identify" as something other than male, women are in real danger.

Many autogynaephilic cross-dressers actually hate women for being what they want to be but can never be. Their motivation for entering women's protected spaces is not to blend in but to occupy and colonise, enjoying the discomfort of women perceiving a male-bodied individual in a women's space. Peeping toms, exhibitionists, voyeurs and other varieties of general creep are now "identifying" as women to gain access to women's locker-rooms and bathroom facilities - not to mention domestic violence shelters - whether or not they normally present as trans. Effeminate boys are being allowed to join the Girl Guides and go on residential camps, sharing sleeping and bathroom facilities with girls. It has been made explicit that the girls' parents are not to be told that their daughters are sleeping in the same room as a male-bodied boy, and any girl who expresses discomfort or objects is labelled a transphobe and publicly shamed.

The only motives she ascribes for being trans are sexual fetish.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Have you thought about getting into amateur dramatics?

You do very good hyperbole.

Maybe you could just think about both situations and a way of a happy medium rather than getting uber sensitive

Then work on better arguments than "there are not enough of them in the minority for me to care how they feel".

 

[cullennz]

Then work on better arguments than "there are not enough of them in the minority for me to care how they feel".

Lol

Do you mind pointing out where I said that?

As I'm pretty sure I just said uncomfortable "feelings" works both ways.

Though some appear to see only one.

 

[Belz...]

The only motives she ascribes for being trans are sexual fetish.

How did you miss the fact that she was talking about a subset of trans? How can you read posts and understand them so completely differently from how they are written? Is it a condition that affects your reading, a deliberate con, or an ideological bias, or something else?

Either way, you could do worse than find a way to quit that and instead address what's actually posted by other posters. I don't know if you're aware, but you have quite the reputation for posting nothing but strawmen.

 

[shuttlt]

I think it is a fair description of exactly how Rolfe classified trans people in her first post. See



The only motives she ascribes for being trans are sexual fetish.

She was talking about autogynophiles. She wasn't compiling a list of motivations for claiming to be trans sexual.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Lol

Do you mind pointing out where I said that?

This works both ways

Demanding some people to be comfortable to suit a miniscule amount of others to have comfort is no different from demanding the miniscule amount of people to feel comfortable using a bog they don't find comfortable.

The only difference is numbers

As I'm pretty sure I just said uncomfortable "feelings" works both ways.

Though some appear to see only one.

And then you asserted that numbers were important in it. So why shouldn't that be applied to other minorities?

 

[ponderingturtle]

She was talking about autogynophiles. She wasn't compiling a list of motivations for claiming to be trans sexual.

She was clearly asserting that this was the major motivation for people identifying as trans. It was the motivation to write off all trans people and missgender them.

 

[Belz...]

She was clearly asserting that this was the major motivation for people identifying as trans.

Stop using that word. You have absolutely no idea what people are clearly saying, since you keep misrepresenting them. This is your pattern: A) make a strawman and when called on it B) claim that the strawman "clearly" represents the actual argument.

Rolfe was clear. Everybody understands what she was talking about except you.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Stop using that word. You have absolutely no idea what people are clearly saying, since you keep misrepresenting them. This is your pattern: A) make a strawman and when called on it B) claim that the strawman "clearly" represents the actual argument.

Rolfe was clear. Everybody understands what she was talking about except you.

Given everything else she said yes she was, she does not recognize trans people as their chosen gender and thinks that the main reason for identifying as such is sexual gratification. Your reluctance to recognize that is your own problem.

 

[Belz...]

Given everything else she said yes she was, she does not recognize trans people as their chosen gender and thinks that the main reason for identifying as such is sexual gratification.

Doubling down on your mistake/lie does not make it more true.

Your reluctance to recognize that is your own problem.

I apologise for not jumping to the same misrepresentations you do.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

For what it's worth, I also read Rolfe's posts as a condemnation of most/all transwomen as 'autogynaephilic' fetishists.

They are fixated on becoming the sex they aren't. Woman is a performance they do, often their over-sexualised fantasy of what they think a woman should be, but they're deadly serious about wanting absolutely everything with the label "female" on it.

I don't know why I'm perennially surprised by the sheer number of right-on lefty dudebros, as well as straight-up right-wing misogynists, who pile into these discussions mansplaining to women what it is to be a woman, and sporting their woke credentials by telling women they have to budge up and make room for men in dresses because they sure as hell won't make a safe space in men's designated accommodation for them. Men support other men in their desire to oppress women. There's actually nothing surprising about this at all.

I have little hope that the men's rights dudebros of this parish will actually try to get their heads round how this impacts actual women (as opposed to men who wish they were women, who are getting everything they want).

These and other posts, to me, appear to condemn all transwomen, not just a small subset of perverts.
But perhaps Rolfe can clarify?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I can't help but think "I know! I'll assume an entirely new gender identity and voluntarily join a subculture that is still the focus of much hatred, discrimination, and harassment and that will make being a Peeping Tom easier!" is not exactly a very well thought out plan.

Again the "Sexual Minority as cover for Sexual Deviance" argument is well trod space that does't seem to be supported by much of anything.

 

[Belz...]

I can't help but think "I know! I'll assume an entirely new gender identity and voluntarily join a subculture that is still the focus of much hatred, discrimination, and harassment and that will make being a Peeping Tom easier!" is not exactly a very well thought out plan.

Yeah it's just about as plausible as the hypothetical people who become gay just to spite conservatives.

 

[shuttlt]

I can't help but think "I know! I'll assume an entirely new gender identity and voluntarily join a subculture that is still the focus of much hatred, discrimination, and harassment and that will make being a Peeping Tom easier!" is not exactly a very well thought out plan.

Again the "Sexual Minority as cover for Sexual Deviance" argument is well trod space that does't seem to be supported by much of anything.

Yet some people do do crazy manipulative things for attention. I was reading last night that the rate of BPD in transsexuals runs at of the order of 30%.

The number of trans people is dwarfed by the number of people with mental heath and personality challenges such that, were it to take their fancy, the negative attention of saying you are a woman while wearing stubble and dressing as a man would be all upside.

 

[shuttlt]

Yet some people do do crazy manipulative things for attention. I was reading last night that the rate of BPD in transsexuals runs at of the order of 30%.

The number of trans people is dwarfed by the number of people with mental heath and personality challenges such that, were it to take their fancy, the negative attention of saying you are a woman while wearing stubble and dressing as a man would be all upside.

Are we really now saying it is implausible that Stefonknee here quite enjoys the negative attention, but must genuinely be a 6 year old girl?

 

[Belz...]

Again, I do believe that this particular story was a joke, Shuttit.

 

[shuttlt]

Again, I do believe that this particular story was a joke, Shuttit.

Could be. Could you link to something? There are plenty of sources - The Independent newspaper in the UK example who reported it as real. I can't find any evidence for it being a joke beyond incredulity.