Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[Belz...]

You are all bigots, the lot of you.

To be fair... that was a joke, I believe.

 

[William Parcher]

I agree, but the accusation of bigotry is just icing on the cake. Meanwhile, if the school board says that the "penis men" have a right to be there, there is not a lot that the high school girls can do about it. Boycotts. Walkouts. Skip gym class. That's about it.

Yeah, well every high school has a Ronda Rousey and if a penis boy comes into her locker room she will beat the living **** out of him. He will be crying for mommy. After that happens a couple times there will be no more penis boys going into that locker room. The girls locker room.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Qayak is essentially making the same argument that hard-liner feminists make when they claim that the word "manufacture" is sexist.

I remember when some strains of feminism got on the whole "womyn" kick for the same reason, they didn't want the word to just be "something+man"

But, believe it or not, I don't want this to turn into just broad ridiculing of feminist or progressives. That's not my goal and I don't think it will help.

My only request throughout this and all discussion of this nature is you have to give me a way to win. Setting it up so have to pretend men and women are the same lest I be branded a bigot but also have to pretend that men and women have difference that have to accepted only when someone chooses to subvert them or I'm a bigot and I will not play that game.

There was a sketch on the Simpsons one time where Principle Skinner is trying to address the problem of the girls underperforming at math

Skinner: Today, we celebrate the first of many, many, many, many diversity forums. Why is it that women 'appear' to be worse at math than men? What is the source of this 'illusion' or as I call it, the biggest lie ever told.
Lindsey Naegle: You're a worse version of Hitler!
Skinner: Please believe me. I-I understand the problem of women. (he moves from behind the podium revealing he's wearing a purple dress and purple heels) See. (the audience gasps)
Nelson: Haw, haw! The principal's a tranny.
Skinner: Am I wearing women's clothes? I didn't notice. When I look in my closet, I don't see male clothes or female clothes. They're all the same.
Edna Krabappel: Are you saying that men and women are identical?
Skinner: Oh, no, of course not! Women are unique in every way.
Lindsey Naegle: Now he's saying men and women aren't equal!
Skinner: No, no, no! It's the differences of which there are none that makes the sameness exceptional. Just tell me what to say! (he starts to breathe heavily then pass out)

And stuff like this is what I mean when I keep referring to a certain strain of Progressivism as "Can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game."

Cause People have got to learn if I can't please everybody you need to give me a compelling reason why the person I chose to not please shouldn't be you.

 

[Belz...]

But, believe it or not, I don't want this to turn into just broad ridiculing of feminist or progressives. That's not my goal and I don't think it will help.

No, but it can't hurt, either.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Nah as tempting as it turning this into an "Us V Them" cause-off just because it would feel good is exactly what I get onto other people for so, I can't do it.

The people trying to make the world better for Transgenders are by no means the bad guy. Hopefully this discussion has or will go at least somewhere toward explaining how the people who don't frame or conceptualize it that way aren't the bad guy either.

 

[cullennz]

I remember when some strains of feminism got on the whole "womyn" kick for the same reason, they didn't want the word to just be "something+man"

But, believe it or not, I don't want this to turn into just broad ridiculing of feminist or progressives. That's not my goal and I don't think it will help.

My only request throughout this and all discussion of this nature is you have to give me a way to win. Setting it up so have to pretend men and women are the same lest I be branded a bigot but also have to pretend that men and women have difference that have to accepted only when someone chooses to subvert them or I'm a bigot and I will not play that game.

There was a sketch on the Simpsons one time where Principle Skinner is trying to address the problem of the girls underperforming at math



And stuff like this is what I mean when I keep referring to a certain strain of Progressivism as "Can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game."

Cause People have got to learn if I can't please everybody you need to give me a compelling reason why the person I chose to not please shouldn't be you.

That was a funny episode

The bit straight after is pretty funny as well

 

[king catfish]

I was about to post this in another thread, but it might as well go here.

https://lascapigliata8.wordpress.co...ological-sex-of-trans-identified-perperators/

Also this.

http://mirandayardley.com/en/how-transgender-ideology-is-destroying-the-labour-party/

If "gender" is just another word for personality type it's a fairly harmless conceit, but when it leads to the opening of women's protected spaces to male-bodied individuals purely on their say-so that they "identify" as something other than male, women are in real danger.

Many autogynaephilic cross-dressers actually hate women for being what they want to be but can never be. Their motivation for entering women's protected spaces is not to blend in but to occupy and colonise, enjoying the discomfort of women perceiving a male-bodied individual in a women's space. Peeping toms, exhibitionists, voyeurs and other varieties of general creep are now "identifying" as women to gain access to women's locker-rooms and bathroom facilities - not to mention domestic violence shelters - whether or not they normally present as trans. Effeminate boys are being allowed to join the Girl Guides and go on residential camps, sharing sleeping and bathroom facilities with girls. It has been made explicit that the girls' parents are not to be told that their daughters are sleeping in the same room as a male-bodied boy, and any girl who expresses discomfort or objects is labelled a transphobe and publicly shamed.

Mediocre men are competing against women in sports at all levels, and although elite-level sports limit the plasma testosterone concentrations these men are allowed to have, no consideration is given to the physical advantages of having an adult male body which went through male puberty. At school and amateur level even testosterone isn't checked. Girls who have trained hard and been beaten by these boys are publicly biting their lips, choking back their tears, and issuing politically correct statements about how well "Susan" has done and they support her brave stance to adopt her "true identity".

Young children who happen to like clothes and/or toys deemed more appropriate for the opposite sex are now being fast-tracked into a life of permanent medicalisation, disfiguring surgery and serious medical consequences resulting from the use of powerful hormones to try to mimic the endocrinology of the opposite sex. As one masculine-presenting woman who was old enough to avoid being railroaded recently said, "I screamed and screamed that I was a boy, but I didn't want to be a boy, I wanted the things that boys had. The short hair and the skateboard and the jeans and the Power Rangers t-shirt." Girls like her are now being encouraged to have mastectomies and take testosterone.

It's the most horrendously sexist thing imaginable. You're a girl and you like blue and short hair and Meccanno, or you're a boy and you like pink glitter and Barbie dolls, you must have been born in the wrong body, never mind, we'll change it for you and we'll make you feel so special and brave for being an amazing trans-kid!

And don't get me started on rapid-onset gender dysphoria, which has replaced anorexia nervosa as the destructive social contagion among adolescent girls who hate their bodies. At least with anorexia nervosa nobody "affirmed" the skeletal waif in her belief that she was grossly obese. Girls with ROGD are being hailed as brave and special and offered testosterone as young as thirteen. You might as well give an anorectic girl a calorie-controlled diet sheet and schedule her for gastric band surgery.

So no, all this gender stuff isn't harmless, it's destroying lives right now. It will blow over the way the recovered memories of Satanic abuse thing blew over, but in the mean time some kids are being seriously damaged. I hate to think what the lawsuits are going to look like by the time these adolescents reach middle-age and the consequences of the hormones they've been given really start to bite.

Very well said. Rolfe, I tend to disagree at least in part with a lot of what I read from you, but I have to applaud and fully agree with your very well stated position here.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You know I'm gonna advance the notion that "Keeping pro-sports fair" might the most important factor in how we as a society approach improving gender relations.

 

[qayak]

Qayak is essentially making the same argument that hard-liner feminists make when they claim that the word "manufacture" is sexist.

Further proof that you either don't read, or if you do, fail miserably at comprehension. When multiple conditions occur in a statement you, and several other, fixate on one that you already have a set opinion on and continually fail to address the other conditions set out. I bet not a single one of you knows what my original statement was based solely on the fact that it was never a part of any argument in this discussion and yet you think it is.

 

[Belz...]

Further proof that you either don't read, or if you do, fail miserably at comprehension.

I notice that you responded to an attack on your argument by attacking the arguer. More proof that you can't help yourself when presented with contrary opinions.

 

[qayak]

Errrr I said that. In modern usage "Woman" is feminine, "Man" is male (usually), and "Human" is neutral.

I was countering the idea Qayak is building his case on that
A) Linguistically "Woman" is a subcategory of "Man"
B) That means anything because on an embryonic level we start as female and are modified into males early on in development which creates some sort of hypocritical paradox in his world because of reasons.

Let me translate this:

I (JoeMorgue) was countering the idea that I (JoeMorgue) really, really want Qayak to be building a case on (Even though he isn't) that
A) Some stuff JoeMorgue made up.
B) Some stuff JoeMorgue doesn't understand.

 

[qayak]

I notice that you responded to an attack on your argument by attacking the arguer. More proof that you can't help yourself when presented with contrary opinions.

The trouble is that all you've got is opinion, Belz, no argument, no evidence, no knowledge. But you spout your opinion like it is valuable, I give you that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That all being said... let's look at the story of young David Reimer.

David Peter Reimer was born (as Bruce Peter Reimer, more on that in a moment) in 1965 in Winnipeg. At the age of 6 months he was diagnosed with phimosis (do not Google that I learned that the hard way) which is essentially a condition where the tip penis and foreskin is not fully formed. And this is one of the few legit medical conditions that circumcision can treat.

So David was circumcised... and the urologist in charge decided to perform the procedure using a device originally designed to electronically castrate cattle because that's a thing I needed to know existed.

The procedure in which a six year old's penis was circumcised using a device used to castrate cattle... somehow went wrong *I'm shocked. This is my shocked face. See how shocked I am?* David's penis was burned beyond surgical repair and JESUS CHRIST WHY IS THE WORLD AWFUL.

The parents, understandably concerned for their son's future psychological and mental health, took him to the renowned John Hopkins Medical Center in Boston. There after a consultation with renowned early gender identity psychologist John Money the decision was made to complete a sexual reassignment surgery on the boy and raise him female. At 22 months a orchidectomy was performed and his parents began to raise him as a female named Brenda). A full sex change was never completed, forcing David/Brenda to urinate through a hole in his abdomen his/her entire life.

(By the way this story gets really weird because originally Brian was named Bruce and his twin brother was named Brian, but after Bruce transitioned to female his brother was renamed Bruce, she was named Brenda, but when Brenda reverted back to male later in life she took the name Brian again...)

It... did not go well. Despite hormone treatments and being raised fully as a girl from the age of 22 months... Brenda's life was a living hell. Eventually at the age of 14 her parents told her the truth and Brenda reverted back to a male identity soon after. He married and adopted 3 children but struggled with depression (gee you think...) and sadly committed suicide at the age of 38.

Bruce/David/Brenda's story does not neatly fit into any specific narrative of how gender and sexuality is supposed to work. Despite surgery and hormone treatments and being totally raised as a woman... this person seemed to fight it.

Now the gender identity crowd might, very much perhaps correctly, argue this means that David had some sort of innate "maleness" on a biological level that wasn't changed by the hormones and surgery and raising.

But we also have to accept that changing genders in order to fit some "better" mental state is a very powerful thing that can cause great damage.

 

[Belz...]

The trouble is that all you've got is opinion, Belz

Well given what you've posted here, so do you. The difference is that you're the one who's made a claim and who's been unable to support it.


I'm sure you'll have some sort of personal attack ready as a response.

 

[qayak]

Is there a better quote than the one upthread from Wolpert on foetal development? I don't see anything in it that can't be reframed as female foetuses are testosterone deprived males.

Think about that for a moment. If you have a factory that churned out doors made of white plastic and some of those doors then got painted red, would it be more factually correct to say that the red doors are modified white doors or that the white doors have been deprived of red paint? Afterall, they are fully functioning doors without the red paint.

 

[theprestige]

There is a ready response if somebody calls you a bigot for such a thing. You say, "whatever!"

The baying mob is probably not swayed by the brash "whatever! " of their prey.

 

[qayak]

Well given what you've posted here, so do you. The difference is that you're the one who's made a claim and who's been unable to support it.


I'm sure you'll have some sort of personal attack ready as a response.

The fact that you are too lazy to go read on a subject that you claim to be interested in is not a personal attack. The claim I made about men essentially being modified women is not an opinion, it's a fact, supported by evidence. For example: Male bits start out as female bits and are modified by dihydrotestosterone (DHT)to become female. Some males don't get enough DHT and are born genital folds unfused, like females. Then at puberty when males get a large dose of DHT they grow penises.

I simply refuse to quote an entire book to you when the statement I made was never part of any argument I was making. It was an aside that you seem to have fixated on.

I am sure you will respond with another passive aggressive diatribe about how unfairly you are being treated.

 

[Belz...]

The fact that you are too lazy to go read on a subject that you claim to be interested in is not a personal attack.

Yes, yes it absolutely is. Just because someone acts like an idiot, for instance, doesn't mean calling that person an idiot is not an attack. That I'm lazy is entirely your invention, and your excuse to cover your ass because you were unwilling or unable to support a claim YOU made in this thread. It's not my job to support your claims. You should know this by now.

The claim I made about men essentially being modified women is not an opinion, it's a fact, supported by evidence.

We're yet to see that evidence.

For example: Male bits start out as female bits

No, they don't. I've already addressed this earlier: gonads do NOT begin at the position they end up in in either case.

I simply refuse to quote an entire book

Oh, that's the problem. You're making up a completely irrational and unreasonable request, assigning it to me, and then arguing against it. That's called a strawman. It's also a deliberate one, which is called a lie, because I've made very clear what would satisfy me and it's way beneath my usual standard of evidence. And yet you won't meet it. You're the lazy one.

I am sure you will respond with another passive aggressive diatribe about how unfairly you are being treated.

What a strange thing to say. Where did I make a comment about being treated unfairly, and what's "passive" about any of my posts? Of course I don't expect you to answer that. You're just making stuff up as you go because you're frustrated and you're lashing out. Again, you are completely unable to accept someone disagreeign with you. Well, that isn't my problem.

 

[cullennz]

That all being said... let's look at the story of young David Reimer.

David Peter Reimer was born (as Bruce Peter Reimer, more on that in a moment) in 1965 in Winnipeg. At the age of 6 months he was diagnosed with phimosis (do not Google that I learned that the hard way) which is essentially a condition where the tip penis and foreskin is not fully formed. And this is one of the few legit medical conditions that circumcision can treat.

So David was circumcised... and the urologist in charge decided to perform the procedure using a device originally designed to electronically castrate cattle because that's a thing I needed to know existed.

The procedure in which a six year old's penis was circumcised using a device used to castrate cattle... somehow went wrong *I'm shocked. This is my shocked face. See how shocked I am?* David's penis was burned beyond surgical repair and JESUS CHRIST WHY IS THE WORLD AWFUL.

The parents, understandably concerned for their son's future psychological and mental health, took him to the renowned John Hopkins Medical Center in Boston. There after a consultation with renowned early gender identity psychologist John Money the decision was made to complete a sexual reassignment surgery on the boy and raise him female. At 22 months a orchidectomy was performed and his parents began to raise him as a female named Brenda). A full sex change was never completed, forcing David/Brenda to urinate through a hole in his abdomen his/her entire life.

(By the way this story gets really weird because originally Brian was named Bruce and his twin brother was named Brian, but after Bruce transitioned to female his brother was renamed Bruce, she was named Brenda, but when Brenda reverted back to male later in life she took the name Brian again...)

It... did not go well. Despite hormone treatments and being raised fully as a girl from the age of 22 months... Brenda's life was a living hell. Eventually at the age of 14 her parents told her the truth and Brenda reverted back to a male identity soon after. He married and adopted 3 children but struggled with depression (gee you think...) and sadly committed suicide at the age of 38.

Bruce/David/Brenda's story does not neatly fit into any specific narrative of how gender and sexuality is supposed to work. Despite surgery and hormone treatments and being totally raised as a woman... this person seemed to fight it.

Now the gender identity crowd might, very much perhaps correctly, argue this means that David had some sort of innate "maleness" on a biological level that wasn't changed by the hormones and surgery and raising.

But we also have to accept that changing genders in order to fit some "better" mental state is a very powerful thing that can cause great damage.

Far out

That is horrendous

 

[qayak]

Yes, yes it absolutely is.

No, no it isn't. You're just using politically correct rhetoric to passive aggressively avoid doing your homework. Your entire argument revolves around your unwillingness to simply go read the articles by the author I cited which are readily available online. You can then expand that by watching the lectures of other biologists on Youtube discussing many of the same things.

But no. You want me to do that and then come back here and write out long reports that you will not read beyond taking something out of context and fixating on it to argue over. It is the foundation of your argument and thus it is fair to comment on it.

Thanks but no thanks.