Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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The ”null hypothesis” is just another way of asume that which should be shown with the evidence.

The effect comes down to teleological aristotelian reasoning which states that facts, cause and effect, are sucked in place by the divine prime mover.

The last time someone suggested this kind of logic without being laught at, was ca half a millenia ago.

And, here we are, 2017.

The lone nut = the prime mover = the null hypotethis.

You haven't any idea what you're talking about. As I said, you're embarrassing yourself, and the self-proclaimed holy zeal of your truth mission is not protecting you. Stop invoking Aristotle, who hasn't got anything to do with the null hypothesis here. The only divine prime mover around here is your faith-based approach to conspiracy.
 
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In short, in this case, JFK was shot to death.
Agree.

That means the null hypothesis here is one shooter, since, given the preceding fact in evidence, the possibility of "no shooter" is eliminated.
At least one shooter, agree.

Thus, any additional shooter must be established,
Agree.

but we know there was at least one, because he died by gunfire.
Agree.

Now, this says nothing about who fired the shots.
Agree.

But separate from the null hypothesis, there was one shooter seen at the time of the shooting,
Do not agree. There are witnesses on the record stating a shooter behind the picket fence on the knoll. That makes it at least two shooters allegedly seen att the time of the shooting.

there was one rifle found,
A Mauser turning Carcano turning murder weapon, yes. Evidence?

and all the shells,
None of the shells has the tags they shall have according to the official chain of custody. There is also an additional, non official, chain of custody.

So, how do you handle this?

bullet fragments that were traceable,
What fragments were traceable to what and according to whom? Are you thinking of the disgraced method of neutron activation analysis here?

as well as the nearly whole bullet recovered at Parkland
Chain of custody?

were all ballistically traceable to the one weapon
Evidence?

So while that doesn't eliminate additional shooters, it certainly narrows the scope.
If there is evidence for this, maybe yes. If not, its a completely different game.

We're now looking for unseen shooters
Wrong. There is witnesses for a shooter/shooters in the TSBD as well as on the knoll.

firing unseen weapons
Wrong. Rifle were seen both in TSBD and on the knoll.

that left no trace of themselves behind
It depends on how you define ”trace” in this instance.

- The majority of witnesses said that they herd shots from the knoll.

- A few witnesses reported smell of gun powder behind the fence as well as while passing the knoll in the motorcade.

- A few witnesses reported white smoke gliding down the knoll while hearing shots coming from the same place.

- There is a photography showing white smoke over the knoll seconds after the shooting.

- An unknown man is showing Secret Service credentials to the first policeman arriving behind the fence. No Secret Service were on or around the Dealey Plaza shortly after the shooting.

- JFK’s head is snapping backwards to the left when hit in the head, indicating a shot from the right in front of him —-> the knoll.

- Muddy fotprints on the ground and on car bumpers, and lots of fresh cigarette buts, behind the fence.

- HSCA’s acoustical investigation found five rifle shots on the DPD’s dictabeltrecording from a stuck microphone on a police motorcycle. Four from behind the limo and one from the picket fence on the knoll. P for random noise = 1/100 000.

- HSCA acoustical investigation found no evidence of echos that could be misstaken for the source of the sound = echos can not explain (away) the majority pointing to (and running up to) the picket fence as the source of shot/s.

- The MC police driving behind to the left of the presidents limo says he got splattered from the head shot and given the very low speed, indicating the splatter flying in high speed backwards from the limo ——> headshot from in front to the right —-> the knoll.

- A few witnesses on the Dealey Plaza reporting seeing the back of JFK’s head being blown away, indicating a shot from in front of him.

- Almost everyone who saw JFK’s head wound close up are reporting a big gaping wound in the right back of the head, indicating a shot from the front. Surgeons, forensic pathologists, nurses, forensic photographers, x-ray physichians, agents from Secret Service and the FBI, almost 50 witnesses. A big gaping wound in the right back of the head.

- The team in Parklands trauma room one, who tried to save JFK’s life reported a small round ”punctuated entrance wound” just below JFK’s Adams apple = shot from the front (visible before the tracheotomi).

So, how do you define ”trace” in this particular instance?

- no bullets, no shells,
Agree.

no fragments that could be eliminated from the found weapon.
Evidence?

It sounds to me like we're looking for evidence of unicorns at this point.
See above.

But that still doesn't establish Oswald fired any shots.
Agree.

But then we look at the weapon, and it was ordered by Oswald
Was it? Evidence?

, paid for by Oswald,
Was it? Evidence for this?

shipped to Oswald's post office box,
Was it? Any evidence for this?

and possessed by Oswald (he was photographed with it
IF the photo is the real deal (easy to fake) it doesn’t prove anything. The plotters could have manipulated him posing with the rifle for fun.

and it had his prints on it).
Are you sure? Evidence?

It was stored in a place he had access to infrequently
Evidence for this?

(the Paine garage)
Yes. The garage that kept giving ...

and it was found in his place of employment.
The Mauser?

He was seen by two people with a long package the morning of the assassination,
Well, none of them could identify the bag allegedly found in the snipers nest by someone unknown and not photographed before ellegedly picked up. No traces of oil from a broken up rifle, well oiled. Paper bag.

one of whom estimated the package initially at three feet.
Which one of them? Quote?

The rifle was measured at 40 inches.
Frazier said that Oswald carried the bag in his cupped hand beneath his armpit. Impossible if the bag had the broken up Carcano in it.

He made a special trip to the Paine home the night before the assassination.
Not so special, no, and the reason this time was a childrens birthday party that weekend in the Paines Household and that he therefore wanted to see his kids before the weekend.

His prints were determined to be on the trigger guard,
By whom?

his prints were on a sack found near the window where the shooter was seen,
A print but no traces of oil from the broken up well oiled rifle? Hmmm ...

and his prints were on the boxes in that corner.
Yes, he worked with those boxes among others.

He is the only person in the entire history of the world known to have access to the Paine garage and the sixth floor of the Depository.
So?

All this was covered in far greater detail in the threads preceding this one.
Feel free to copy and paste when appropiate. No worries.

Familiarize yourself with the arguments already made, the evidence already cited, and the reason why arguments for conspiracy get no traction.
There are millions of people not buying the lone not Oswald-story. But I guess you’re seldom outside this protected place?

As I said, feel free to copy and paste already made explanations when deemed relevant.

No worries.
 
You haven't any idea what you're talking about. As I said, you're embarrassing yourself, and the self-proclaimed holy zeal of your truth mission is not protecting you. Stop invoking Aristotle, who hasn't got anything to do with the null hypothesis here. The only divine prime mover around here is your faith-based approach to conspiracy.
It sucks, doesn't it.
 
Do not agree. There are witnesses on the record stating a shooter behind the picket fence on the knoll. That makes it at least two shooters allegedly seen att the time of the shooting.
Now you just need compelling evidence for additional shooters.

A Mauser turning Carcano turning murder weapon, yes. Evidence?
Now you just need compelling evidence for a Mauser.

Wrong. There is witnesses for a shooter/shooters in the TSBD as well as on the knoll.
Now you just need compelling evidence for a shooter on the grassy knoll.

Wrong. Rifle were seen both in TSBD and on the knoll.
Now you just need compelling evidence for a rifle on the knoll.

- The majority of witnesses said that they herd shots from the knoll.
We'll just call that a departure from the truth.

- A few witnesses reported smell of gun powder behind the fence as well as while passing the knoll in the motorcade.
Now you just need compelling evidence for a shot being fired from there.

The Mauser?
Now you just need compelling evidence for a Mauser.

Well, none of them could identify the bag allegedly found in the snipers nest by someone unknown and not photographed before ellegedly picked up. No traces of oil from a broken up rifle, well oiled. Paper bag.
Now you just need compelling evidence for curtain rods.

There are millions of people not buying the lone not Oswald-story. But I guess you’re seldom outside this protected place?
What story do they ALL believe?
 
There are millions of people not buying the lone not Oswald-story. But I guess you’re seldom outside this protected place?

There are millions of people who've never been to Dallas and stood in Dealey Plaza.

There are millions of people who've never read the Warren Commission Report in either the condensed version nor all 26 volumes.

There are millions of people who have never fired a high powered rifle, nor seen someone killed by a high powered rifle.

There are millions of people who know nothing about the Kennedy Assassination other than it happened. They don't know the facts of the events of that day let alone Oswald's past.

There are millions of people who have an irrational, bordering on pathological distrust of authority, and the US government, and any government based on nothing more than emotional problems.

There are millions of people who think the CIA has magic powers.

I can go on.

Bottom line: There are millions of people who are nimrods.

Just because a lot of people believe something is true doesn't make it true, just ask Bigfoot and the Loc Ness monster.
 
As I said, feel free to copy and paste already made explanations when deemed relevant.

As I said, check this and the preceding threads for all the prior discussions on all this. I don't intend to go to any trouble just because you got here late.

See the thread.

Or even better still, use the search function here and find any posts by me mentioning any key words you like, then tell me what I got wrong. Cite for your arguments. Don't use logical fallacies or take claims out of context. Don't cite fellow conspiracy theorists for their opinions -- that's not evidence. Don't advance hearsay and rumor as evidence. I'll retract when you establish your case. You won't, of course, because you can't.

You can see my school of thought laid out for you in this thread and the preceding five right here on ISF. Let me know what issues you have with any of my posts. But your game is too obvious and too redundant. I've played that game for 25 years, since I started discussing the assassination on Prodigy in the early 1990's.

I have a trail going back six and a half years on this forum, and I don't need to repeat those arguments because you ignored them the first time around. You've been here since 2009.

Hank
 
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Now you just need compelling evidence for additional shooters.
Wrong. The claim was that witnesses reported seeing a shooter only in the TSBD. Which is wrong. There were also witnesses reporting seeing a shooter on the knoll.

Now you just need compelling evidence for a Mauser.
I can not prove it, but I can prove there were different statements from different investigators at different times saying and writing it was a Mauser AND that it was a Carcano. That the only written and signed record says it was a Mauser.

Alas, no clear record it was the Carcano, the alleged murder weapon.

Now you just need compelling evidence for a shooter on the grassy knoll.
The claim was that there were ”no traces” of a shooter anywhere else than from the TSBD. Which is wrong. I listed a few.

You beg to differ? Be specific.

Now you just need compelling evidence for a rifle on the knoll.
Wrong. There are witnesses reporting seeing a shooter + rifle on the knoll.

We'll just call that a departure from the truth.
The majority of those witnesses that stated from were they heard shots. Lots of witnesses were not asked from were they heard shots.

A bit peculiar, don’t you think?

Now you just need compelling evidence for a shot being fired from there.
I did listed a few such evidence. You do not like them?

Be specific.

Now you just need compelling evidence for a Mauser.
Ditto for you and the Carcano.

Now you just need compelling evidence for curtain rods.
No. It is you that need compelling evidence for the broken down Carcano. Oswald said his lunch was in his bag. You do not believe him? Why is that?

What story do they ALL believe?
You do not have to believe another story in order not to believe a patently bogus one. It is enough to point out the excesses of lies, fabrications, intimidations, lack of secured proviniences, raws of strange coincidents, strange deaths, ignored evidence, etc, etc, to claim a story to be false.

You do not need to produce a better one or any story at all in order to do that.

It’s flawed thinking demanding such. Like a breath of bad air.
 
As I said, check this and the preceding threads for all the prior discussions on all this. I don't intend to go to any trouble just because you got here late.



Hank
So, you refuse to show any evidence backing your bald claim that Oswald killed JFK?

But you also refuse to retract the same? Why do you make claims you have no intentions to defend? On a forum for Scientific Scepticism?

Really?
 
As I said, feel free to copy and paste already made explanations when deemed relevant.

Still waiting for you to respond to this post about the three officers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12253356&postcount=838

We're expecting you to be like all other conspiracy theorists, Manifesto, where we point out issues and you ignore those points, and instead invoke logical fallacies like red herrings (changing the subject) or a Gish Gallop (which you invoked and I cut). MicahJava was exceptional at ignoring questions and points that contradicted his claims. Are you at least his equal?

Don't you go disappointing us now.

Hank
 
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I’m not the one making a claim. ”Hank” is claiming that Oswald killed JFK.
Hank (no need for scare quotes--that's his name) has discussed much of this in the past couple of years on this list.

It's always amusing to me that some conspiracy theorist who is obviously using a fake name tries to gain an edge of some sort by questioning the legitimacy of the name I use, which is still the one I was born with.

Hank Sienzant
 
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Wrong. The claim was that witnesses reported seeing a shooter only in the TSBD. Which is wrong. There were also witnesses reporting seeing a shooter on the knoll.

They were wrong.

When you went to Dallas what did you see? Oh that's right, you've never been.

Let me clue you in, a shooter on the Grassy Knoll would have stood out like a lighthouse, and EVERYONE would have seen him.

Also, if there was a shooter on the Knoll he didn't hit anything. The shots came from behind. The forensics, ballistics, and fiber evidence all prove this to be true.


I can not prove it, but I can prove there were different statements from different investigators at different times saying and writing it was a Mauser AND that it was a Carcano. That the only written and signed record says it was a Mauser.

This is lie.

Three cops thought it was a Mauser, and they were wrong. Cops make mistakes under oath all the time. The Carcano's discovery was captured on film as it happened. No photographs exist of a Mauser, nor were any taken because no Mauser was found.

Alas, no clear record it was the Carcano, the alleged murder weapon.

Except for the fact that 6.5x52mm bullets are proprietary to the Carcano

The claim was that there were ”no traces” of a shooter anywhere else than from the TSBD. Which is wrong. I listed a few.

Claims that have been debunked decades ago.

Wrong. There are witnesses reporting seeing a shooter + rifle on the knoll.

Nope. Doesn't matter what a FEW people THINK they saw, it only matters what the evidence shows. There was no gunman on the Grassy Knoll. This is 1980's nonsense.

I did listed a few such evidence. You do not like them?

No, you've listen hearsay, and no bullet stuck the car from the front.

No. It is you that need compelling evidence for the broken down Carcano. Oswald said his lunch was in his bag. You do not believe him? Why is that?

Unless Oswald was having a 4-foot long submarine sandwich for lunch with gun oil as a condiment instead of mustard, the weight of the evidence leans toward him carrying a rifle in the bag.

You do not have to believe another story in order not to believe a patently bogus one. It is enough to point out the excesses of lies, fabrications, intimidations, lack of secured proviniences, raws of strange coincidents, strange deaths, ignored evidence, etc, etc, to claim a story to be false

That's just your flawed opinion. You don't believe Oswald shot JFK, and none of the mountains of evidence, nor the lack of exonerating evidence will sway your cynicism.

You do not need to produce a better one or any story at all in order to do that.

No, when you read the Warren Commission, look at the thousand of documents online, and use common sense you don't have to produce a better story to make trolls happy. The truth is the truth, and the truth is Oswald killed JFK.
 
Wrong. The claim was that witnesses reported seeing a shooter only in the TSBD. Which is wrong. There were also witnesses reporting seeing a shooter on the knoll.
Now you just need compelling evidence for a shooter on the knoll.

I can not prove it, but I can prove there were different statements from different investigators at different times saying and writing it was a Mauser AND that it was a Carcano. That the only written and signed record says it was a Mauser.
Now you just need compelling evidence for a Mauser.

Alas, no clear record it was the Carcano, the alleged murder weapon.
Now you've added needing compelling evidence that Oswald's M/C was NOT located in the TSBD.

The claim was that there were ”no traces” of a shooter anywhere else than from the TSBD. Which is wrong. I listed a few.

You beg to differ? Be specific.

Wrong. There are witnesses reporting seeing a shooter + rifle on the knoll.
Now you just need compelling evidence for a shooter on the grassy knoll.

The majority of those witnesses that stated from were they heard shots. Lots of witnesses were not asked from were they heard shots.

A bit peculiar, don’t you think?

I did listed a few such evidence. You do not like them?

Be specific.
Now you just need compelling evidence for a conspiracy.

Ditto for you and the Carcano.
There is compelling evidence for the Carcano. Not for your Mauser. You'll need to provide that.

No. It is you that need compelling evidence for the broken down Carcano. Oswald said his lunch was in his bag. You do not believe him? Why is that?
What happened to the curtain rods?

You do not have to believe another story in order not to believe a patently bogus one. It is enough to point out the excesses of lies, fabrications, intimidations, lack of secured proviniences, raws of strange coincidents, strange deaths, ignored evidence, etc, etc, to claim a story to be false.
You do need to provide a comprehensive narrative that explains all of the evidence. As it stands, the prevailing narrative still prevails. It has met the burden of proof and will continue to be the null hypothesis.

You do not need to produce a better one or any story at all in order to do that.

It’s flawed thinking demanding such. Like a breath of bad air.
No, it's absolutely appropriate to ask for that. The bad air continues to fail at providing it.

The null hypothesis stands. Sucks to be a CTist.
 
They were wrong.

When you went to Dallas what did you see? Oh that's right, you've never been.

Let me clue you in, a shooter on the Grassy Knoll would have stood out like a lighthouse, and EVERYONE would have seen him.

Also, if there was a shooter on the Knoll he didn't hit anything. The shots came from behind. The forensics, ballistics, and fiber evidence all prove this to be true.

I would have said dog's bollocks, but fair call.

There were also numerous photos and films taken of and from the grassy knoll at the time of, and just after the shooting... NO SHOOTER

Abraham Zapruder was himself standing on a plinth at the top of the grassy knoll. He would have seen any shooter and heard the shots VERY LOUDLY

This is lie

CTs lie all the time... what's new?

Three cops thought it was a Mauser, and they were wrong. Cops make mistakes under oath all the time. The Carcano's discovery was captured on film as it happened. No photographs exist of a Mauser, nor were any taken because no Mauser was found.

manifesto has been asked several times to provide evidence of what the three cops are supposed to have said... so far... crickets. He's either ignoring the requests, or knows he cannot provide the evidence.

Except for the fact that 6.5x52mm bullets are proprietary to the Carcano
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<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


Claims that have been debunked decades ago.

Its never stopped CTs from repeating the claims before.

Nope. Doesn't matter what a FEW people THINK they saw, it only matters what the evidence shows. There was no gunman on the Grassy Knoll. This is 1980's nonsense

An overwhelming number of witnesses heard three shots come from the TSBD.. even some of those close to the grassy knoll....NO WITNESSES CLOSE TO THE TSBD POINTED TO THE GRASSY KNOLL AS THE SOURCE OF THE GUNSHOTS!

No, you've listen hearsay, and no bullet stuck the car from the front.

100%.

ALL of the evidence; ballistics, forensics, fibre, points to the gunshots coming from above and behind the motorcade.

Unless Oswald was having a 4-foot long submarine sandwich for lunch with gun oil as a condiment instead of mustard, the weight of the evidence leans toward him carrying a rifle in the bag.

Either that or he was given to lubricating curtain rails with gun oil.

That's just your flawed opinion. You don't believe Oswald shot JFK, and none of the mountains of evidence, nor the lack of exonerating evidence will sway your cynicism.

This is typical of CTs; manifesto, micahjava and the other usual suspects are no different... they ask for evidence, and when you give it to them, they ignore it if it doesn't fit with the
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<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
world view

There's nothing new to see here.

Manifesto's claims are boring, old-hat, unoriginal, repeatedly debunked rubbish from the 1980's and 1990's


No, when you read the Warren Commission, look at the thousand of documents online, and use common sense you don't have to produce a better story to make trolls happy. The truth is the truth, and the truth is Oswald killed JFK.

Yup, and even all the newly released documents are leading to the same conclusions.. that Oswald murdered JFK with a 6.5 x 52mm Carcano, from his sniper's nest in the SE corner of the sixth floor of the TSBD. Nothing in this case is more certain than that!
 
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So, you refuse to show any evidence backing your bald claim that Oswald killed JFK?

But you also refuse to retract the same? Why do you make claims you have no intentions to defend? On a forum for Scientific Scepticism?

Really?

How can somebody be refusing to show evidence that is already presented?
You seem to have trouble grasping that what you ask for was already provided, at considerable length in this conversation.
 
...

Yup, and even all the newly released documents are leading to the same conclusions.. that Oswald murdered JFK with a 6.5 x 52mm Carcano, from his sniper's nest in the SE corner of the sixth floor of the TSBD. Nothing in this case is more certain than that!

A perfect summation of the argument.
 
You HAVE read the thread, haven't you? Right after you looked up "consilience"?
No I have not read the thread. If there is said information somewhere in it, feel free to cite it and paste it. No need to do it twice.

You do know how to cite/copy and paste?
 
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