Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[shuttlt]

Outside of sports where the advantages to transwomen vs ciswomen is debatable how is being inclusive hurting women's health and what ever is in the ect?

How is women's health being encroached upon?

Why are men kept out of women's spaces? Presumably the answer to why trans women are worrying to women lies there.

On a tangential note... My old work introduced gender neutral toilets, but enough women complained that it was abandoned. The tone of it was pretty much that it was disgusting to have to share with men. It was a nice office, it wasn't like people were smearing **** on the walls.

 

[Belz...]

From the first paragraph in the link:



In the first paragraph, she correctly identifies the problem. Your most noticeable feature is your sex, and when you "notice" someone's sex, you notice it based on appearance.


So, if you happen to be in a situation, like a locker room, where you might notice what is normally hidden behind a zipper, you're going to judge their maleness or femaleness based on what you can see, not based on what they might be thinking at the time, or the shape of something that is hidden inside the cranium.

I'm sure it must be a shocking revelation to a lot of people that we tend to determine what people are based on objective characteristics, not the belief of the person in question.

 

[Belz...]

My old work introduced gender neutral toilets, but enough women complained that it was abandoned. The tone of it was pretty much that it was disgusting to have to share with men.

May I ask why? I ask because my proposed solution to the transgender restroom issue was unisex restrooms.

 

[shuttlt]

Well, it looks like this link is needed again.

The science tells us that it is not just 'in their heads'. There are multiple body systems telling them this. When your body systems are telling you you're a woman, what are you supposed to be? That makes you a woman.

The first thing that jumped out from the link is the article has "two spirit" as the midpoint between male and female on the gender identity plot. Isn't that some New Age ********?

They try to use "some degree of" ambiguous genitalia at birth to make issues impacting trans people more common than they are.

I'm genuinely curious about the 63% experiencing discrimination figure. It includes people who claim to have been incarcerated due to gender expression. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the story quoted when you click through is about being a drug dealing/addicted thief/hooker. Are trans people genuinely getting incarcerated for their gender expression?

As for the brain stuff. Are they saying that trans women have brains within the normal range of women? I saw statements about some features, and some brain structures.... She seems to want to use ways in which trans brains might be more like their claimed gender to identify what a mans brain or a woman's brain in. This seems like a pretty circular thing to do in so far as this type of discussion goes.

 

[tyr_13]

Well, are they Napoleon by the simple fact that their "bodies" tell them that they are?

You tell me. You're the one who thinks it's related. How is it related? What research into people who think they are Napoleon leads you to the conclusion it's a related phenomenon?

I want to understand how you define what makes someone the thing they claim to be. I'm still not sure how you define "man" and "woman" outside of "they feel like they are so".

How consistently do they feel they are so? How much satisfaction do they get from steps of transitioning?

Being a 'man' or a 'woman' isn't and has never been one thing. It is a clustering of sexually dimorphic traits combined with social constructions on what those 'mean'. Taking out any six of them ultimately doesn't make them not the gender they are. A woman has breasts. Does a flat-chested woman not a woman, or even less of a woman? Is a man who develops female breast tissue not a man? Women can have children. Is a woman who cannot less of a woman, and a man who can't get a woman pregnant less of a man? Men and women respond differently to catecholamines, is a man who does not respond with excitement to them less of a man?

Ultimately the only person who could figure that out is the person themselves. Their conclusion isn't just 'a feeling'.

If you look back at the post you quoted, and presumably read, I was talking about the culture of validation.

Yeah, I know. You also indicated what you believe 'the culture of validation' means, and that's listening to the people's claims of what their gender is.

That's at least one thing we agree on.



Who said it had to be simple?

Those asking for single definitions on what it 'woman' means are asking for something simple, whether or not they realize it.

Okay let's try a more grounded comparison.

Rachel Dolezal. Remember her? The white lady (German, Swedish, and Czech ancestory) that "identified" as black and headed a chapter of the NAACP?

Is she black? "Race" is certainly a near totally social construct.

See the above about Napoleon people as it applies here too. In addition, this indicates that you think I'm saying that gender is only a function of biology OR a social construct, and that something being a social construct means it's completely arbitrary. This isn't the case.

In short, those phenomenon don't relate closely, unless you have something to show they do.

Which multiple body systems? All I'm seeing is brain/mind.

Sorry, it might not actually be in that link. The other systems include different patterns of transmitting, regulating, and processing biomolecules. Keeping in mind the point I made above about 'clustering of traits' and that these are tendencies of various strengths, some other different reactions are to things like testosterone, aromatase, serotonin, vasopressin. There are also differences in things like cholinergic system that helps in sleep and reactions to opioids. For example, women's bodies tend to not develop muscle as readily even taking male levels of steroids that do work on males. Opioid reaction tends to be stronger in women and trans women.

This is the old framework. The current movement is against medical gate-keeping and outside determination. Only self-identification is required.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/...nt_who_decides_when_transition_treatment.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ender-recognition-self-identify-a7855381.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/us/birth-certificate-nonbinary-gender-california.html

The first link notes how both ways are still used and debated. I'm for the cutting down on red tape, but that consulting with professionals is always going to be advisable. It's just too damn complicated. Depending of course, on what stage or behavior is being challenged. That is to say, I think asking for ID or anything besides self-identification to use the restroom is wrong. In the overwhelming number of social interactions, self-identification should be way more than enough.

I'm no essentialist, but if you didn't notice from my criticisms of some of the ways transgender issues are advanced and push in places they are not salient I'm not above disagreeing with some of the transgender community. There is a lot of discussion about that in community, and I'm well aware of it. As a matter of fact, I've learned a lot from my friends and family who are part of that community venting about what they see as the anti-science and emotional reaction based reasoning of those doing things like denying biology has any effect at all or demanding to be part of abortion safe-spaces and the like.

 

[tyr_13]

The first thing that jumped out from the link is the article has "two spirit" as the midpoint between male and female on the gender identity plot. Isn't that some New Age ********?

It's more like 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid', where one falls in between and really can't decide or sometimes they feel closer to one and sometimes closer to another. That's actually back on the original topic, because trans men and women are still going to binary genders, not multiple.

They try to use "some degree of" ambiguous genitalia at birth to make issues impacting trans people more common than they are.

Huh?

I'm genuinely curious about the 63% experiencing discrimination figure. It includes people who claim to have been incarcerated due to gender expression. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the story quoted when you click through is about being a drug dealing/addicted thief/hooker. Are trans people genuinely getting incarcerated for their gender expression?

Yes. It's sadly common for anyone interacting with the police to be held longer or have additional charges based on 'lying' about their gender or identity for 'giving a false name' when they don't want to use their birth name.

As for the brain stuff. Are they saying that trans women have brains within the normal range of women? I saw statements about some features, and some brain structures.... She seems to want to use ways in which trans brains might be more like their claimed gender to identify what a mans brain or a woman's brain in. This seems like a pretty circular thing to do in so far as this type of discussion goes.

Again, huh? That's not circular. Those traits tend to be either men's or women's and the transgender people tend to have these traits inside the range of their claimed gender and not their birth assignment. (There is a lot of overlap between 'male' and 'female' brain traits. See my clustering argument in an earlier post.)

 

[Meadmaker]

In the overwhelming number of social interactions, self-identification should be way more than enough.

And if that were enough for the transgender rights activists, I don't think there would be such a huge brouhaha about it.

The problem we have today is that a lot of people say that since self-identification is enough in most social interactions, it ought to be enough in all social interactions.


Simply put, teenage girls are being told that they have to share a locker room with a man someone who is capable of making them pregnant. If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.

 

[tyr_13]

And if that were enough for the transgender rights activists, I don't think there would be such a huge brouhaha about it.

The problem we have today is that a lot of people say that since self-identification is enough in most social interactions, it ought to be enough in all social interactions.


Simply put, teenage girls are being told that they have to share a locker room with a man someone who is capable of making them pregnant. If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.

We've had this discussion many times before. My view hasn't changed, and I doubt yours ever will.

 

[Meadmaker]

We've had this discussion many times before. My view hasn't changed, and I doubt yours ever will.

True. The issues haven't changed.

 

[kellyb]

Sorry, it might not actually be in that link. The other systems include different patterns of transmitting, regulating, and processing biomolecules. Keeping in mind the point I made above about 'clustering of traits' and that these are tendencies of various strengths, some other different reactions are to things like testosterone, aromatase, serotonin, vasopressin. There are also differences in things like cholinergic system that helps in sleep and reactions to opioids. For example, women's bodies tend to not develop muscle as readily even taking male levels of steroids that do work on males. Opioid reaction tends to be stronger in women and trans women.

Can I get a link on the highlighted?

Re: the stuff like the bolded, are you saying pre-transition transwomen have stronger opioid reactions stronger than cismen? Can I get a link on whatever you're talking about there, too?

 

[kellyb]

This is the old framework. The current movement is against medical gate-keeping and outside determination. Only self-identification is required.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/...nt_who_decides_when_transition_treatment.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ender-recognition-self-identify-a7855381.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/us/birth-certificate-nonbinary-gender-california.html

This is my understanding as well, and most transwomen would be pretty offended if you told them they needed some professional to authenticate their status as a woman or transwoman.

 

[William Parcher]

If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.

There is a ready response if somebody calls you a bigot for such a thing. You say, "whatever!"

 

[Thermal]

Okay let's try a more grounded comparison.

Rachel Dolezal. Remember her? The white lady (German, Swedish, and Czech ancestory) that "identified" as black and headed a chapter of the NAACP?

Is she black? "Race" is certainly a near totally social construct.

I vote no. She claimed a background that did not exist.

 

[shuttlt]

May I ask why? I ask because my proposed solution to the transgender restroom issue was unisex restrooms.

It was never made completely explicit beyond "it should be obvious". If you think about stereotypes of married life... men leaving the toilet seat up and their wives complaining must have been a cliche since the invention of the toilet seat. These toilets had sinks in the cubicles, if some water from there goes on the toilet seat (this did happen because it was all so cramped), or some water from the flush goes on the seat.... the men are disgusting pigs. If somebody stinks out the toilets, the men are disgusting pigs.

I generalize of course, but it was a source of conflict and it all went one way.

Its not like women going into men's toilets is unique... Long queues seem to trigger it pretty frequently. My impression is that women's toilets are more vigorously defended than men's, women are much less used to men using their toilets and women view men's toilet habits, taken in the round, as not necessarily always beyond reproach.

Stereotypically, men's and women's toilets are rather different social spaces. Beyond the purely functional aspect, a unisex toilet isn't going to be the same as a segregated one. Some contexts that change will hardly be noticeable, some it will be. I guess its not the end of the world, but its not simply a case of allowing more people in but nothing changing.

 

[shuttlt]

Ultimately the only person who could figure that out is the person themselves. Their conclusion isn't just 'a feeling'.

Only if you define it as the sort of thing where the subjects own feeling is decisive. This seems circular to me.

The whole point done to death a million times long before this thread is that a lot of people don't accept this very point

 

[cullennz]

It's more like 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid', where one falls in between and really can't decide or sometimes they feel closer to one and sometimes closer to another. That's actually back on the original topic, because trans men and women are still going to binary genders, not multiple.



Huh?



Yes. It's sadly common for anyone interacting with the police to be held longer or have additional charges based on 'lying' about their gender or identity for 'giving a false name' when they don't want to use their birth name.



Again, huh? That's not circular. Those traits tend to be either men's or women's and the transgender people tend to have these traits inside the range of their claimed gender and not their birth assignment. (There is a lot of overlap between 'male' and 'female' brain traits. See my clustering argument in an earlier post.)

I think you might mean "refuse to give their legal name and known aliases"

Not "Don't want to use their birth name"

 

[shuttlt]

I vote no. She claimed a background that did not exist.

Because a bigoted world would not have accepted her if she'd spoken the truth.

 

[Thermal]

Because a bigoted world would not have accepted her if she'd spoken the truth.

So just lie like a rug and that makes her...what? More noble?

 

[shuttlt]

It's more like 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid', where one falls in between and really can't decide or sometimes they feel closer to one and sometimes closer to another. That's actually back on the original topic, because trans men and women are still going to binary genders, not multiple.

I know what the word means. It is just an odd word to use in the context.Just makes me wonder about the person writing the article, that's all.

Huh?

From your link:
"And so, while the list of causes for transgender identity continues to grow, it has become quite clear that it is not a conscious choice – similar to what has been described for the “reasons” behind sexual orientation. Still, at least 63% of transgender individuals experience debilitating acts of discrimination on a regular basis, including incarceration, homelessness, and physical assault. When about 1.7% of the population is in some way affected by cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth, these findings seem staggering."
How does the 0.3% of the population the article says are trans being discriminated against because of their gender expression relate to men with tiny penises?

Yes. It's sadly common for anyone interacting with the police to be held longer or have additional charges based on 'lying' about their gender or identity for 'giving a false name' when they don't want to use their birth name.

Ah, so lying to the police and then getting arrested counts as discrimination... OK.

Again, huh? That's not circular. Those traits tend to be either men's or women's and the transgender people tend to have these traits inside the range of their claimed gender and not their birth assignment. (There is a lot of overlap between 'male' and 'female' brain traits. See my clustering argument in an earlier post.)

Can they use these features to sort a random pile brains into the gender they identify with any reliability? Are there features of female brains that don't correlate with trans females?

From the little bit in the article, it seemed they went looking for brain features with statistical correlations between trans brains and the gender they identified with and then asserted the gender of the brain, what ever that is, is in the brain structures where trans brains were similar to the brains of the gender they identified with. That assumes the conclusion it is looking to prove.

If somebody believed (does anybody on the thread believe this?) that there was some characteristic in the brains of born women that defined the essential essence of womanliness, but that trans women don't have it... How does pointing to brain structures in trans women's brains that are more in the female range, but possibly still overlapping with the male range (?), and ignoring the structures that mark those brains out as male get you anywhere? Who on the thread is being refuted here?

 

[shuttlt]

So just lie like a rug and that makes her...what? More noble?

Oh, she's high grade crazy, but if trans-race exists the people who are going to try and live the trans racial life are going to self-select for outlier personality types. It takes crazy nerve for a white woman to walk about amongst black people with fake afro hair and fake tan pretending to be black.