Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[kellyb]

MRAs have been trolling feminism-centric areas of the web since forever.

 

[pharphis]

MRA isn't a position that's socially acceptable in society. Even the moderate groups who try to remain relatively neutral on feminism (which arguably stands quite clearly in opposition to men in many realms) are labeled misogynists, dead-beats, etc.

CAFE (Canadian Association for Equality - see https://www.gofundme.com/abusedmenshelter) is an example in Canada of a (mostly family-related) MRM group.

SJWs mostly appear at universities but they certainly exist in real life. The MRM stays silent and anonymous, for the most part, though they do exist in real life as well.


re clarifying terms for women

I don't understand the hostility to using additional terminology to specify subsets of groups. I'm not suggesting we say "ciswomen" to refer to those of the female sex who also identify as women EVERY DAY in all situations (I don't think anyone but extremists suggest this). Of course it has functional use when talking about transgender folk and related topics.

We've established that it's a "real thing" so why all the fuss? Why pretend that gender == sex? (yes I know it maps onto sex correctly 99%+ of the time but we're talking about the <1% of the time)

 

[cullennz]

'The same as'.

You can't have a subset of a group which is everyone who is the group.

You can have subsets of another group who want to be part of the first group, but can't be.

 

[pharphis]

You can't have a subset of a group which is everyone who is the group.

You can have subsets of another group who want to be part of the first group, but can't be.

The problem is you're asserting that "female" is the entire set of "women".

 

[cullennz]

The problem is you're asserting that "female" is the entire set of "women".

Fair point

Females transitioning to males are a subset of the other group,

 

[cullennz]

Ie

Women

Men

And non conforming to birth (with subsets)

 

[cullennz]

The problem is you're asserting that "female" is the entire set of "women".

Sorry.

Missed read your post.

They are

Women - "female human"

 

[Meadmaker]

MRAs have been trolling feminism-centric areas of the web since forever.

Sure.

But they are practically non-existent. I've never met one. I've never seen them mentioned in mainstream media. "Trolling" is probably the exactly correct word, because a lot of them are just pretending, trying to get a reaction.


I have heard the term "SJW" outside of the internet. I've met trans people and trans rights activists. But these MRAs? Haven't seen hide nor hair of them. They can't be a significant force in the world.

 

[kellyb]

Sure.

But they are practically non-existent. I've never met one. I've never seen them mentioned in mainstream media. "Trolling" is probably the exactly correct word, because a lot of them are just pretending, trying to get a reaction.


I have heard the term "SJW" outside of the internet. I've met trans people and trans rights activists. But these MRAs? Haven't seen hide nor hair of them. They can't be a significant force in the world.

Mead, just because you haven't met one irl doesn't mean anything at all. Trolling is their online behavior, but their opinions are probably truly internalized and just dressed down when they're needling women for fun online, pretending to be a supporter who just think we women need to adjust our thinking and MO to be more "effective" or whatever.

 

[cullennz]

Mead, just because you haven't met one irl doesn't mean anything at all. Trolling is their online behavior, but their opinions are probably truly internalized and just dressed down when they're needling women for fun online, pretending to be a supporter who just think we women need to adjust our thinking and MO to be more "effective" or whatever.

Edit: Sorry

Ignore that. Worked it out. Just me being a thickey

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Meeting hardliner advocates IRL or not isn't really a useful metric of much in my book. I mean, in general there is a certain amount of self-sorting and not freely volunteering of information that it is difficult to say anything about the real world with that knowledge. For example, I can't say I've met an NRA member.

But more broadly, advocates don't need to be large, visible groups in our day to day lives to set the agenda or frame mainstream debate. For example, certain US States now allow you to change your birth certificate and State IDs to "X" for "non-binary". Or some of their ideas that they are defending can have widespread cultural acceptance already, as I suspect is more of the case with the "MRA".

 

[Belz...]

Woman - "female human"

What does the cis mean?

Haven't you been explained exactly what it means in excruciating detail last year?

 

[cullennz]

Meeting hardliner advocates IRL or not isn't really a useful metric of much in my book. I mean, in general there is a certain amount of self-sorting and not freely volunteering of information that it is difficult to say anything about the real world with that knowledge. For example, I can't say I've met an NRA member.

But more broadly, advocates don't need to be large, visible groups in our day to day lives to set the agenda or frame mainstream debate. For example, certain US States now allow you to change your birth certificate and State IDs to "X" for "non-binary". Or some of their ideas that they are defending can have widespread cultural acceptance already, as I suspect is more of the case with the "MRA".

I havent meet any mens right activists but have seen a few via youtube.

I have yet to see any preaching for the trame people particularly

 

[ponderingturtle]

The problem when you "talk past" someone in certain situations that gets you branded a hateful cislord bigot.

I've literally had people; otherwise nice smart reasonable people, say that "misgendering someone" is pretty much on the same level as a slur and my entire Facebook feed has been awash in the last week with the report that not using a person's preferred pronoun is a leading cause of suicide.

So yeah... can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game.

Well when parents bully their trans kids like that it is a serious issue. The thing is that misgendering someone by mistake and by harassment is entirely different.

 

[ponderingturtle]

*Twilight Zone theme plays in the background*

Ok, I give up. Who said anything about reproductive status?

That is what biological sex is. It makes the easiest way to divide everyone into groups by their own biology. It gets rid of all those annoying complicated cases where you get mixed sex signals because most of them are sterile and you don't have to worry about androgen insensitive men being mistaken for real women and so on.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I've always managed to get by with female, male, various, miscellaneous and ?.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sure.

But they are practically non-existent. I've never met one. I've never seen them mentioned in mainstream media. "Trolling" is probably the exactly correct word, because a lot of them are just pretending, trying to get a reaction.


I have heard the term "SJW" outside of the internet. I've met trans people and trans rights activists. But these MRAs? Haven't seen hide nor hair of them. They can't be a significant force in the world.

I have never met a alt right person either, so clearly the alt right does not really exist.

 

[Rolfe]

Cis women are a subset of women.

This term is considered to be grossly offensive by a large number of women. Probably by most women who have figured out what it means (or actually heard it used). To continue to insist on using it after this has been explained is even more grossly offensive. Not born with external genitalia which were recognised as female, and raised as a girl? Not a woman.

Find other words for people who are otherwise described, and don't erase our identity by appropriating our actual name.

Would you continue to use a derogatory term for an ethnic group after it had been explained to you that many members of that group considered it to be extremely offensive? No? Then stoppit.

 

[Rolfe]

More hysterical speculation. You DO realize that the MRA's are closely aligned with the alt-right wrt to transgenders and allowing transgenders to "get everything they want" doesn't seem to be an essential component of their, decidedly, chaotic game plan?

You didn't actually click on the link and read the article, did you?

 

[Belz...]

This term is considered to be grossly offensive by a large number of women. Probably by most women who have figured out what it means (or actually heard it used). To continue to insist on using it after this has been explained is even more grossly offensive. Not born with external genitalia which were recognised as female, and raised as a girl? Not a woman.

Find other words for people who are otherwise described, and don't erase our identity by appropriating our actual name.

Would you continue to use a derogatory term for an ethnic group after it had been explained to you that many members of that group considered it to be extremely offensive? No? Then stoppit.

Pardon my ignorance but, where has it (cis) been shown to be offensive?