Cont: Proof of Immortality VIII

Is there something wrong with that formula?

"Is there something wrong with my formula?"
"Yes, here it is..."
"Is there something wrong with my formula?"
"Yes, we've already told you. Here it is again..."
"Is there something wrong with my formula?"
"Dammit, Jabba, Yes!"
"I'll assume there's nothing wrong with my formula."
"Hey, we told you again and again that there's something wrong with it, and we told you what that is!"
"Is there something wrong with my formula?"
"Yes."
"I'll be back."


You're just deliberately wasting our time, Jabba. You're a rude and insulting poster.
 
What do you think is different in any substantive way?

Bayes Theorem is P(H|E) = P(E|H)P(H) / P(E).
P(E|H)/P(E) is the likelihood ratio.
P(E) is equal to P(E|H)P(H) + P(E|~H)P(~H).

Do you not see how it is the same thing as what you continually foist?

You have shown us that despite your claims to the contrary you knowledge of statistics is weak. Now you are showing us that your facility with basic algebra is also weak.

You are digging a hole, and you know what they say about that.



How many times do we have to say that P(E|H) is the probability of E given H?
js.
- What has tripped me up is P(E). I couldn't conceive of a prior probability of an event...
- Anyway, I think I finally see your point. Up till now, I didn't realize/notice how P(E|H)P(H) + P(E|~H)P(~H) morphed into P(E) -- or, vice versa. I do appreciate your responses.
- I'll quit calling P(E|H) the "likelihood" of E given H, and start calling it instead, the probability of E given H.
- What's the next problem you see?
 
- Another example.
- In order to determine if a nickle is fair (H), we flip it 100 times and get heads 100 times. What's the posterior probability of H?
- I think that it's something like the posterior probability of OOFLam given my current existence -- if, the sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply.
 
js.
- What has tripped me up is P(E). I couldn't conceive of a prior probability of an event...
- Anyway, I think I finally see your point. Up till now, I didn't realize/notice how P(E|H)P(H) + P(E|~H)P(~H) morphed into P(E) -- or, vice versa. I do appreciate your responses.
- I'll quit calling P(E|H) the "likelihood" of E given H, and start calling it instead, the probability of E given H.
- What's the next problem you see?

Well, how about the fact that you just admitted that you didn't understand Bayes theorem when you started this whole sorry mess five years ago? You don't get to just move on as if it was a minor misunderstanding, your whole premise is blown. It's too much to hope that you'd realise that you don't understand the maths involved at all, I suppose.
 
- Another example.
- In order to determine if a nickle (SIC) is fair (H), we flip it 100 times and get heads 100 times. What's the posterior probability of H?
You calculate it and show your math with your "nickle".

- I think that it's something like [U]the posterior probability of OOFLam given my current existence
Why in the world would you think that?

-- if, the sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply[/U].
But it does apply. It's a given that you're employing the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
 
Jabba;12247912.... - What's the next problem you see?[/QUOTE said:
Y'all see how he is using you to "fine tune" his "proof".

The intent is not to vet an idea and then discard it when it is found wanting.
The idea is to try to twist reality into something that "supports" the "conclusion" already reached.
 
- What's the next problem you see?

- reading all the responses you get will help.
- JayUtah has noted several that you admit you cannot answer.
- The Texas Sharpshooter fallacy does apply.
- Your E must be consistent. Your current existence includes your body in H, you must also include it in ~H. Fact: your body exists whether or not you have a soul.
- now would be a good time to acknowledge that you have lost.
 
js.
- What has tripped me up is P(E). I couldn't conceive of a prior probability of an event...

Bayesian inference isn't about what you can and cannot imagine. And P(E) is not a prior probability in the inference you are mishandling; it is simply a probability.

- Anyway, I think I finally see your point. Up till now, I didn't realize/notice how P(E|H)P(H) + P(E|~H)P(~H) morphed into P(E) -- or, vice versa. I do appreciate your responses.

...except that your version of ~H isn't the actual complement of H so you cannot use the equivalence.

- I'll quit calling P(E|H) the "likelihood" of E given H, and start calling it instead, the probability of E given H.
- What's the next problem you see?

You still haven't made any progress dealing with the simple fact P(E) = 1. If and when you do get past that, though, there is still the rest of JayUtah's list you may want to consider. There are others, but there's no point piling on just now.
 
- In order to determine if a nickle is fair (H), we flip it 100 times and get heads 100 times. What's the posterior probability of H?

What additional information would one need to answer this question, jabba?
 
I'll quit calling P(E|H) the "likelihood" of E given H, and start calling it instead, the probability of E given H.

You should probably stop calling yourself a "certified statistician" too.

What's the next problem you see?

The same ones they've been for the past five years.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11871278&postcount=3198

You should probably also stop pretending your critics are ever going to see answers to these.
 
What additional information would one need to answer this question, jabba?

Addendum that Jabba will ignore:

"Please spoon feed me a way to word my nonsense that you will accept" is not "additional information."
 
What additional information would one need to answer this question, jabba?
- P(H) and P(E)?
- Assuming we have no serious reason for thinking the coin unfair, I'd say they would be something like P(H) = .99 and P(E) =.01, and solving the formula we'd get P(H|E) = .5100 X .99 / .01, or virtually zero (I can't remember, or quickly figure out, how to get the actual number).
- I could be exposing my ignorance, but so be it -- someone is finally, directly, answering my questions and forwarding the discussion.
 
someone is finally, directly, answering my questions and forwarding the discussion.
This is an outright lie. People have been directly answering your questions for the last more than five years. When challenging questions are posed to you, you ignore them.

Maybe you could change your innate dishonesty and start answering questions.
 
js.
- What has tripped me up is P(E). I couldn't conceive of a prior probability of an event...
- Anyway, I think I finally see your point. Up till now, I didn't realize/notice how P(E|H)P(H) + P(E|~H)P(~H) morphed into P(E) -- or, vice versa. I do appreciate your responses.
- I'll quit calling P(E|H) the "likelihood" of E given H, and start calling it instead, the probability of E given H.
- What's the next problem you see?

...except that your version of ~H isn't the actual complement of H so you cannot use the equivalence.
- Here. I'd like to go back to my original hypothesis (OOFLam) and what I claim to be it's complement. Are you saying that my specifics wouldn't cover the complement?
 
I think that it's something like the posterior probability of OOFLam given my current existence -- if, the sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply.

Why would you think the Texas sharpshooter fallacy wouldn't apply? You seem to think it's something you can just set aside if it becomes inconvenient to getting the answer you want. You haven't yet figured out that it's possible for you to be wrong.

The probability of your current existence matters only if it was supposed to be a certain thing and did or didn't turn out that way. Over a large number of trials, the law of large numbers dictates that the toss of a fair coin should approach a certain distribution. We know this because we know the physics of a fair coin. The probability of you coming out a certain way matters only if there is some way we can know what you were "supposed" to be like. Then and only then can you speak meaningfully about the probability of some outcome. The significance of where the bullet lands in in the Texas sharpshooter fallacy matters because of where it was supposed to land.

No, the toss of a fair coin is nothing like you trying to say you must be special because there were so many different possibilities.

Let's consider a variation on your example. Let's use smaller numbers. You have a fair nickel, and you toss it three times. How many possibilities for that outcome? 23 or 8. We use small numbers so that we can enumerate all 8 possible sequences: HHH, HHT, HTH, HTT, THH, THT, TTH, and TTT. Let's say in your case it comes up TTT. "How remarkable!" you might say. "Three tails in a row!" Sure, you could talk about whether this was a fair coin. Why? Because TTT is more likely given a gimmicked coin versus a fair coin. And that's because we know that to gimmick a coin means to make it come out one way more often than the other.

But the question at hand is not the fairness of the coin. The question is whether the outcome TTT is legitimately remarkable. A moment's thought indicates it's remarkable only because you intuitively considered TTT special from the among the possibilities because it's all the same. TTT and HHH are intuitively remarkable because your primate brain recognized a pattern. Statistically, neither TTT nor HHH is any more probable an outcome that HHT or THT.

That's how poker works. All the hands you could be dealt are equally probable. We primately choose patterns of them ahead of time that meet certain intuitive criteria, mostly because that helps us remember what the winning hands are. Ahead of the game, we identify them as the ones that have special significance for the game. You want to play fast and loose with the opposite intuition -- that if something merely arose out of a huge number of potential combinations, it must therefore be remarkable. And so you draw a chalk circle around it and say, "What a remarkable feat!"
 
- Here. I'd like to go back to my original hypothesis (OOFLam) and what I claim to be it's complement.

"OOFLAM" is not a hypothesis. It is an observable outcome from any of several possible hypotheses. You've chosen one of them, materialism.

It's complement is not and cannot be a single hypothesis, but you've chosen reincarnation. When pressed, you try to enumerate all the hypotheses that aren't materialism but you fail because the nature of a complement defies finite enumeration.

You're just expressing in slightly more formal terms what every fringe claim is. "Well, the prevailing narrative fails by this criteria, so my theory must hold by default." This is easily seen as a false dilemma, and this is why your proof fails to convince reasonable people.

Are you saying that my specifics wouldn't cover the complement?[/QUOTE]

Yes, we've been saying that for years. You just "claim" it doesn't mater.
 
- Here. I'd like to go back to my original hypothesis (OOFLam) and what I claim to be it's complement.
I'll allow you to falsify any hypothesis you invent but if it isn't materialism, you haven't accomplished anything.

Are you saying that my specifics wouldn't cover the complement?
What is the complement of materialism?
 
...
You still haven't made any progress dealing with the simple fact P(E) = 1. If and when you do get past that, though, there is still the rest of JayUtah's list you may want to consider. There are others, but there's no point piling on just now.
- If I can get through your immediate objections, I'll go back to Jay's and your "others."
- Why would P(E) = 1, except in the sense that I intended, and you refuted?
 

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