School shooting Florida

[Civet]

I suspect it may have already been mentioned somewhere, but apparently this mess has been a big earner for the NRA. Major spike in donations. Probably a good, zany conspiracy theory to be spun out of that.

 

[bruto]

From what I've read so far, it appears that there is no evidence that Cruz was affiliated with any Nazi or white supremacist group, and that such claims partly originated with publicity -seeking white supremacists who wished to claim him. However, I don't think there's any lack of evidence that he expressed white supremacist views in public, and espoused violence against blacks, Jews, Muslims, and immigrants in general, and that he agreed on line with the views of other white supremacists who were members of such organizations.

I suppose one can slice it fine enough to say that this, and the mere fact that he is said by the police to have painted swastikas on his ammunition magazines, does not make him an official Nazi, but it does not make him any better.

 

[smartcooky]

You're doing it again.

Saying Cruz was a Nazi without any evidence.

Whether or not he is actually card carrying Nazi is utterly irrelevant.

What IS relevant is that he acted like a Nazi, wore the imagery of the Nazis, espoused their racist, anti-Semitic values, and showed affinity toward them. In every way that matters, the people around him at the school had every reason to regard him as a Nazi, and a dangerous one....... and they acted accordingly.

And You're doing it again as well. Saying that it's not bullying when there's a reason for a person to be bullied

Your undying sympathy for the killer is touching

 

[Andy_Ross]

You're doing it again.

Saying Cruz was a Nazi without any evidence.

And You're doing it again as well. Saying that it's not bullying when there's a reason for a person to be bullied.

But this is a new one. Saying every student who supports Trump deserves to be bullied?!?!?

Engraving his rifle with swastikas is a bit of a giveaway.

 

[thaiboxerken]

More like he was bullied in the same way Muslims and Jews are persecuted in America these days.

Wrong. Cruz persecuted Muslims and Jews and, for some reason, he didn't have many friends at his high school because of it. That's not bullying.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I've been convinced by CaptainHowdy that Emma was, indeed, a bully. Her bullying caused Cruz to go and shoot people up. However, if there was strict gun control, bullies like Emma would not be able to manipulate victims, like Cruz, to go shoot people. We need tough gun-control laws to stop people live Emma from victimizing white Nazis into shooting people with guns. If Cruz didn't have a gun, he would not have killed people because of bullies like Emma........

Thank you, CaptainHowdy, for demonstrating the people aren't the problem, guns are.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

The thing is that we can see what posters have said before.

Then you should look back and see what I've said.

in this thread you have insinuateed that the survivors are "crisis actors"

I "insinuated" no such thing. I said unambiguously that Emma and David are "crisis actors." I didn't say all the survivors were.

But where did I say that the shooting was their fault?

MikeG has it right.

Really? I'm not surprised you would agree with him. I mean, you've said that a student who social services and the police knew had a volatile personality and a violent nature should not have been prevented from buying a gun.

But really, what kind of a person wants to see dead children so badly that he defends the rat faced Sheriff who lets an active shooter situation in progress continue to maximize the casualties and then allows the shooter to go free? I just can't understand that mindset!

But insinuating that government failures should be blamed on NGOs is beyond the pale. Do you think all governments should not have to take responsibility for their actions or is this just American exceptionalism?

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Here are your words again:





That looks like an admission to me. Are you trying to pretend you didn't say this?

You made a mistake. You linked to the conversation so everybody can see the context and see that you're a liar.

 

[phiwum]

You're doing it again.

Saying Cruz was a Nazi without any evidence.

And You're doing it again as well. Saying that it's not bullying when there's a reason for a person to be bullied.

But this is a new one. Saying every student who supports Trump deserves to be bullied?!?!?

Pretty sure he didn't say that last bit.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

I've been convinced by CaptainHowdy that Emma was, indeed, a bully. Her bullying caused Cruz to go and shoot people up. However, if there was strict gun control, bullies like Emma would not be able to manipulate victims, like Cruz, to go shoot people. We need tough gun-control laws to stop people live Emma from victimizing white Nazis into shooting people with guns. If Cruz didn't have a gun, he would not have killed people because of bullies like Emma........

Thank you, CaptainHowdy, for demonstrating the people aren't the problem, guns are.

Your problem here is that Cruz would not have been able to get a gun if the police had arrested him any one of the times they were called because of a violent incident. They didn't even need to arrest him. They could've taken him in for psychiatric observation and he would not have been able to buy a gun.

The police dropped the ball, not Emma. You can't blame her for what she did. She is just a wee child, a fragile flower.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes. I did.

What was the number of the post in which you provided evidence that Emma Gonzalez admitted to bullying Cruz?

Do you have any evidence that Cruz was a "Nazi"?

Why are you asking me for evidence for a claim I didn’t make?

 

[johnny karate]

Are you saying that we should make public policy decisions based on the emotional outbursts of children who don't even have any expertise in the subject?

No, and neither is anyone else. We should, however, make public policy decisions based on actual, demonstrable problems like the one to which these brave students call attention.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Your problem here is that Cruz would not have been able to get a gun if the police had arrested him any one of the times they were called because of a violent incident. They didn't even need to arrest him. They could've taken him in for psychiatric observation and he would not have been able to buy a gun.

The police dropped the ball, not Emma. You can't blame her for what she did. She is just a wee child, a fragile flower.

This shows more need for stricter gun regulations. If there were stricter regulations then the police dropping the ball would not have resulted in a mass shooting. Thank you for another reason for strict gun control.

 

[johnny karate]

Emma Gonzalez didn't say the word bully. She said "Those talking about how we should have not ostracized him, YOU DIDN'T KNOW THIS KID. WE DID!!"

If a murder suspect told the police that 'we shouldn't have stabbed that kid to death' the police would reasonably conclude that this individual was talking about something he and others did. They would consider that enough of a confession to arrest the person.

So, by saying "we", Emma was describing what she and other students did. What they did was "ostracize" Cruz.

Ostracizing somebody can fall under the larger umbrella of bullying. I've never seen a definition of ostracize that is completely incompatible with bullying. Other students have said the word bullying to describe how Cruz was treated at school. A student said Cruz complained about being bullied. A neighbor said Cruz was bullied. His brother said he was bullied.

Any reasonable person who doesn't wear tinfoil hats in public would conclude she admitted to being a part of group of people who bullied Cruz. I don't know exactly what they did to bully Cruz or if their behavior was actually bullying. But multiple people said Cruz was bullied.

If Emma's fee fees are hurt because people think she's a bully, she can go on camera and explain what she meant.

Your entire argument hinges on equating ostracization and bullying.

In that same argument, you have to use qualifiers to link ostracization and bullying, which of course means that ostracization and bullying aren’t the same thing.

That’s one thing I like about conspiracy theorists. If you let them talk long enough, they’ll eventually undercut their own argument with a contradiction.

 

[Aridas]

I suspect it may have already been mentioned somewhere, but apparently this mess has been a big earner for the NRA. Major spike in donations. Probably a good, zany conspiracy theory to be spun out of that.

I'm not sure that it has... in this thread. Either way, the NRA (and other anti-gun control groups) and gun-maker stocks seem to benefit greatly every time there's a publicized school shooting. They're the real winners in all of this, it seems. Too bad the more conspiracy minded folk in the US tend to be so intent on worrying about how all those liberals are totally trying to steal their guns that they've twisted all kinds of reasonable recommendations into "not-quite-secret" conspiracies and strange contortions of the actual arguments and are ignoring the prime conspiracy theory material there. After all, the people who benefit most from events of particular kinds tend to be the most likely people to be working to make them happen more. Who do those "gonna take away all our guns" theories say are actually benefitting from that, anyways? I'm mildly curious, now. Somehow, Climate Change is a giant conspiracy to justify giving lots of money to evil dictators, after all, for example.

 

[smartcooky]

Your entire argument hinges on equating ostracization and bullying.

In that same argument, you have to use qualifiers to link ostracization and bullying, which of course means that ostracization and bullying aren’t the same thing.

That’s one thing I like about conspiracy theorists. If you let them talk long enough, they’ll eventually undercut their own argument with a contradiction.

Just the one?

How very generous of you!

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Your entire argument hinges on equating ostracization and bullying.

Not at all. Your entire argument depends on bullying and ostracizing having nothing in common. Fortunately, I have the dictionary and reams of psychological research on my side.

In that same argument, you have to use qualifiers to link ostracization and bullying, which of course means that ostracization and bullying aren’t the same thing.

OK, you're right. Bullying and ostracizing are complete opposites. In fact, if you're bullying somebody, you're not ostracizing them. If you're ostracizing somebody, then by definition, you are NOT bullying them.

That’s one thing I like about conspiracy theorists. If you let them talk long enough, they’ll eventually undercut their own argument with a contradiction.

So where's the contradiction?

 

[Matthew Best]

Cruz was the bully.

 

[Aridas]

Your entire argument hinges on equating ostracization and bullying.

In that same argument, you have to use qualifiers to link ostracization and bullying, which of course means that ostracization and bullying aren’t the same thing.

That’s one thing I like about conspiracy theorists. If you let them talk long enough, they’ll eventually undercut their own argument with a contradiction.

That particular post doesn't support your contention. Some previous ones did, by the look of it, but not that one. It's helpful to pay attention to what's actually said in what you're actually responding to, either way.

In that one, the main problem was actually the part that goes -

Any reasonable person who doesn't wear tinfoil hats in public would conclude she admitted to being a part of group of people who bullied Cruz.

Given that as was directly admitted in that same post, ostracism is not always bullying, that just doesn't work. Ostracism sometimes is bullying, of course, and more than a few people do exactly what cullennz had been doing before admitting error and just try to claim it all is bullying. Even moreso, for people who just see the ostracism and aren't involved enough to understand what the reasons for the ostracism are, it's not hard to make unwarranted assumptions about whether it actually is or is not bullying... especially when trying to make sense of things after trauma and while grieving.

So, no. "Reasonable" people would not conclude that she admitted to being part of a group of people who bullied Cruz. "Reasonable" people would not be certain that she was not, of course, but wouldn't hand wave away the rest of the statement, either. "Unreasonable" people would be the ones doing any of those three things.

Cruz was the bully.

Bullies can very certainly be bullied, too.

 

[Cain]

How typical of the media to make heroes out of the cowardly, narcissistic, gun-grabbing Parkland kids while portraying the lone Trump-supporting, 2nd Amendment proponent as a villain.