Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

[SpitfireIX]

The initial order from the C/B factory was for 1000 Spitfire IIa; most sources state that this order was placed in spring of 1938; a few say spring of 1939. In any case the facility was designed with the idea of producing 1000 aircraft in two years; obviously this number was far exceeded between June 1940 and June 1942. It would likely have been exceeded even further if not for mismanagement and labor difficulties that occurred before Beaverbrook took direct control and put Supermarine managers in charge.

 

[Tolls]

Be interesting to see Hurricane figures as well, because damned if I can find anything useful for that.

That's just my curiosity again, though.

 

[Craig B]

Roosevelt supported appeasement of Stalin. He never had a bad word to say about the Soviet dictator - www.jrbooksonline.com/fdr-scandal-page/fdr.html
In 1945 Patton stated he was ready to take both Berlin and Prague but was refused permission to do so from Eisenhower acting on instructions from Roosevelt -
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...denly-patton-dies-burying-the-real-holocaust/

The first thing that struck my eye in that link was a quote from Father Charles Coughlin^WP,

Karl Marx is going to win this war.-- Fathher Coughlin

The following is from his wiki biography, describing his notorious antisemitic ranting:

"After the 1936 election, Coughlin increasingly expressed sympathy for the fascist governments of Hitler and Mussolini as an antidote to Communism. He claimed that Jewish bankers were behind the Russian Revolution and that Russian Bolshevism was a disproportionately Jewish phenomenon.

Coughlin promoted his controversial beliefs by means of his radio broadcasts and his weekly rotogravure magazine, Social Justice, which began publication in March 1936. During the last half of 1938, Social Justice reprinted in weekly installments the fraudulent, antisemitic text The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.​

Mondial, stop inflicting this Nazi stuff on us.

 

[Garrison]

The initial order from the C/B factory was for 1000 Spitfire IIa; most sources state that this order was placed in spring of 1938; a few say spring of 1939. In any case the facility was designed with the idea of producing 1000 aircraft in two years; obviously this number was far exceeded between June 1940 and June 1942. It would likely have been exceeded even further if not for mismanagement and labor difficulties that occurred before Beaverbrook took direct control and put Supermarine managers in charge.

Overall thee doesn't seem to be any evidence in the fighter production figures to suggest any sudden acceleration of rearmament post Munich and definitely no 'overdrive'.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Henri, when are you planning to explain how Germany was going to effectively bomb Britain in 1938? Also, when will you be explaining how Germany was going to conquer France and the Low Countries while fighting Czechoslovakia in the fall of 1938, or after conquering Czechoslovakia, in the spring of 1939? And when you do answer, be sure to discuss how this was going to happen without the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th Panzer Divisions.

Additionally, you have repeatedly claimed that Chamberlain was simply stalling to give Britain more time to prepare for war. Please explain why, if this was the case, he ceded the RN bases at Lough Swilly, Berehaven, and Cobh back to Ireland in 1938.

 

[dudalb]

The first thing that struck my eye in that link was a quote from Father Charles Coughlin^WP,

Karl Marx is going to win this war.-- Fathher Coughlin

The following is from his wiki biography, describing his notorious antisemitic ranting:

"After the 1936 election, Coughlin increasingly expressed sympathy for the fascist governments of Hitler and Mussolini as an antidote to Communism. He claimed that Jewish bankers were behind the Russian Revolution and that Russian Bolshevism was a disproportionately Jewish phenomenon.

Coughlin promoted his controversial beliefs by means of his radio broadcasts and his weekly rotogravure magazine, Social Justice, which began publication in March 1936. During the last half of 1938, Social Justice reprinted in weekly installments the fraudulent, antisemitic text The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.​

Mondial, stop inflicting this Nazi stuff on us.

Hey you have to expect a Neo Nazi to inflict Nazi stuff on you,sort of goes with the territory.

 

[Rincewind]

Henri, when are you planning to explain how Germany was going to effectively bomb Britain in 1938? Also, when will you be explaining how Germany was going to conquer France and the Low Countries while fighting Czechoslovakia in the fall of 1938, or after conquering Czechoslovakia, in the spring of 1939? And when you do answer, be sure to discuss how this was going to happen without the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th Panzer Divisions.

Additionally, you have repeatedly claimed that Chamberlain was simply stalling to give Britain more time to prepare for war. Please explain why, if this was the case, he ceded the RN bases at Lough Swilly, Berehaven, and Cobh back to Ireland in 1938.

Yeah - c'mon Henri!

We're all waiting agog with excitement....

 

[Hans]

We're all waiting agog with excitement....

Not all of us, I saw a documentary on TV where some expert was saying that people who make stuff up on the internet often don't return to support it or if they do return they just try and repeat the same claims.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Henri, when are you planning to explain how Germany was going to effectively bomb Britain in 1938? Also, when will you be explaining how Germany was going to conquer France and the Low Countries while fighting Czechoslovakia in the fall of 1938, or after conquering Czechoslovakia, in the spring of 1939? And when you do answer, be sure to discuss how this was going to happen without the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th Panzer Divisions.

Additionally, you have repeatedly claimed that Chamberlain was simply stalling to give Britain more time to prepare for war. Please explain why, if this was the case, he ceded the RN bases at Lough Swilly, Berehaven, and Cobh back to Ireland in 1938.

I have explained all that in previous postings but nobody seems to believe me.

This business of Ireland was a complicated diplomatic business then, and is still a complicated business now with the IRA involved. In his heart Churchill would have liked to have invaded Ireland, but that would not have been good public relations with the Irish and Italian Americans, or the Irish Catholics living in Britain. Our secret service was active in Ireland at the time, and the poet John Betjeman, and somebody called Ryan of the Irish political secret police were involved in that. From a Wikipedia about Betjeman:

In 1939, Betjeman was rejected for active service in World War II but found war work with the films division of the Ministry of Information. In 1941 he became British press attaché in neutral Dublin, Ireland, working with Sir John Maffey. He may have been involved with the gathering of intelligence. He is reported to have been selected for assassination by the IRA. The order was rescinded after a meeting with an unnamed Old IRA man who was impressed by his works.

 

[Henri McPhee]

There is some background information to that Irish port business at this website:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)

It seems to have been some long running sore in Ireland dating back to the establishment of the Irish republic in the 1920s.

Agreement on transfer of Treaty Ports[edit]
By 1938, the governments of the former Irish Free State and the United Kingdom had been involved in a long-running Anglo-Irish Trade War that was not in the interest of either state's economy. Negotiations to settle the matters in dispute took place in 1938. One of the items the Irish side pushed for was the transfer of the Treaty Ports. The treaty was signed on 25 April 1938; the section relating to the Treaty Ports was as follows:

 

[fagin]

.....snip

In his heart Churchill would have liked to have invaded Ireland


desnip..

As long as you know what was in Churchill's heart.....

 

[Henri McPhee]

As long as you know what was in Churchill's heart.....

It's no good just categorically denying everything:

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinio...-de-valera-was-pro-hitler-131940993-238107031

The book is extraordinary in its detail of how the poisoned relationship between the two countries almost led to a second British invasion during the Second World War.

Indeed Northern Prime Minister Lord Craigavon, AKA James Craig, actively encouraged such an invasion.

He wrote to Churchill in 1940 to request that Scottish Highland troops be used to install a new government in Dublin that would allow access to Irish ports for British ships.

Craigavon, a rock ribbed unionist, believed that Eamon De Valera, the Irish prime minister, had fallen under Nazi sway and a new invasion was needed.

 

[Klimax]

I have explained all that in previous postings but nobody seems to believe me.

This business of Ireland was a complicated diplomatic business then, and is still a complicated business now with the IRA involved. In his heart Churchill would have liked to have invaded Ireland, but that would not have been good public relations with the Irish and Italian Americans, or the Irish Catholics living in Britain. Our secret service was active in Ireland at the time, and the poet John Betjeman, and somebody called Ryan of the Irish political secret police were involved in that. From a Wikipedia about Betjeman:

Nody believes you, because your posts are full of crap or irrelevant stuff.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Nody believes you, because your posts are full of crap or irrelevant stuff.

I flatly disagree.

 

[fagin]

It's no good just categorically denying everything:

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinio...-de-valera-was-pro-hitler-131940993-238107031

So?

That's not Churchill, nor his heart...

 

[Garrison]

I flatly disagree.

And yet unlike yourself we can prove our claims. You were asked:

Please explain why, if this was the case, he ceded the RN bases at Lough Swilly, Berehaven, and Cobh back to Ireland in 1938.

you respond by simply linking to a wiki page that restates the information you had just been given about the concession of the ports.

You posted:

In his heart Churchill would have liked to have invaded Ireland

And when asked for evidence you quoted:

Indeed Northern Prime Minister Lord Craigavon, AKA James Craig, actively encouraged such an invasion.

Utterly irrelevant to the question put to you.

Oh and of course this is also an example of you selectively quoting or simply failing to properly read the page you linked as it also says:

Of course it has already been revealed that wily old Churchill offered De Valera a United Ireland if Ireland entered the war.

Sounds more like Churchill was keen on getting back the access to the ports Chamberlain gave away. And of course there's a double level of irrelevance because as has been repatedly pointed out to you Churchill did not enter government until after war had broken out, after appeasement had been abandoned.

We can do this with every pretty much every link you've posted. They have consistently been either irrelevant or actually contradicted your claims.
You continually reference Churchill's actions in 1940 in a discussion about pre-war appeasement. When it was pointed out that RAF fighters could catch all the Luftwaffe bombers in service in 1938 you responded with the stats of a plane that entered service in 1942. you cherry picked quotes from a webpage about a formal debate on appeasement that the defenders of Chamberlain lost to make it appear the page supported your claims. And of course let's not forget that you have never at any point referenced a book on WWII history you have actually read, it's at best book reviews, at worst forum posts that simply regurgitate your views with zero evidence.

You have miserably failed to provide any proof for your claim that Britain would be forced to surrender in week, you have failed to explain how the Luftwaffe could carry out a bombing campaign in 1938 that the Luftwaffe itself concluded was impossible.

 

[Craig B]

There is some background information to that Irish port business at this website:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)

It seems to have been some long running sore in Ireland dating back to the establishment of the Irish republic in the 1920s.

Ireland became a Republic in 1949.

 

[Henri McPhee]

You have miserably failed to provide any proof for your claim that Britain would be forced to surrender in week, you have failed to explain how the Luftwaffe could carry out a bombing campaign in 1938 that the Luftwaffe itself concluded was impossible.

The 1066 and all that approach to the history of the time would be that the military opinion of the most able and experienced soldiers at the time was that the Czechs could not last for much longer than three months, if that. Then Britain and France would have been landed in the compost, with woefully inadequate air forces, which was not the fault of Chamberlain, and up against the weak little Luftwaffe which had proved it could not bomb anything in Spain.
With what? Who would come to our assistance?

 

[fagin]

Still got nothing.....

 

[Garrison]

The 1066 and all that approach to the history of the time would be that the military opinion of the most able and experienced soldiers at the time was that the Czechs could not last for much longer than three months, if that.

Again you express disdain for people who post facts in this thread and follow this up with yet more cherry-picking. Why are you so keen to believe some unidentified military officer about the ability of the Czechs but so resolute in ignoring the fact that much of the German leadership were convinced they would lose a war in 1938?

Then Britain and France would have been landed in the compost, with woefully inadequate air forces.

You keep repeating this, it keeps not being true.

which was not the fault of Chamberlain.

Then whose fault was it then? Be specific Henri, provide evidence as to who was responsible if not the Prime Minister?

and up against the weak little Luftwaffe which had proved it could not bomb anything in Spain.

Henri, your willful insistence on misrepresenting what others have told you is tiresome. We are not discussing bombing a town utterly lacking in air defences from nearby bases by bombers with the benefit of fighter cover to boot. We are talking about conducting long range bombing missions over the North Sea with no fighter support against the UK. Again you choose to ignore the fact that the Luftwaffe itself concluded it could not carry out such a campaign in 1938, on what basis do you do so? What evidence can you present to show the Luftwaffe was wrong about its own capabilities?

With what? Who would come to our assistance?

These questions have been repeatedly answered for you, if you don't like the answers offer up some evidence to back up your claims. Not a book review, not a holocaust denial website, not an unsupported opinion on another forum that happens to agree with you, actual evidence.