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Racism is contextual

IMO the biggest problem here is it's one of the times when language is straight up not equipped for the discussions the culture wants to have, so some of the culture starts appropriating words and creating new ways to use them to say what they mean, and the rest of the culture is like WTF?!?!?

On the one hand you can't get (quickly) a useable language out of 10,000 people independently trying to redefine or create words; you can't have a conversation when you have to stop every two feet to get all the definitions straight. On the other hand, you have to get words and phrases for new concepts into the language somehow.

It'll take about two generations to iron out. It's happened before and it'll happen again.
 
Lithrael said:
It'll take about two generations to iron out. It's happened before and it'll happen again.
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Unfortunately the internet has made language way more fluid and unstable than it was historically, to the point where terms can mean something very different just weeks apart from their introduction, especially with the polarised political climate where twisting words is part of the game. It doesn't make conversation any easier.
 
Belz... said:
But that's the problem: we've redefined racism to make everyone racist. Biases aren't racism. "Unconscious racism" is an oxymoron.
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I'm comfortable in saying that my unconscious biases are racist, though I try not to be racist.
 
Lithrael said:
IMO the biggest problem here is it's one of the times when language is straight up not equipped for the discussions the culture wants to have, so some of the culture starts appropriating words and creating new ways to use them to say what they mean, and the rest of the culture is like WTF?!?!?

On the one hand you can't get (quickly) a useable language out of 10,000 people independently trying to redefine or create words; you can't have a conversation when you have to stop every two feet to get all the definitions straight. On the other hand, you have to get words and phrases for new concepts into the language somehow.

It'll take about two generations to iron out. It's happened before and it'll happen again.
Click to expand...
In my opinion, intelligent folk can deal with different definitions in different contexts, but I hesitate to estimate how many folk are intelligent.
 
Belz... said:
Unfortunately the internet has made language way more fluid and unstable than it was historically, to the point where terms can mean something very different just weeks apart from their introduction, especially with the polarised political climate where twisting words is part of the game. It doesn't make conversation any easier.
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Anecdotally, I agree. For instance, the notion of fake news has been coopted by the Trump administration very effectively.

It would be nice to see clear, statistical data.
 
phiwum said:
I'm comfortable in saying that my unconscious biases are racist, though I try not to be racist.
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Well to me that just sounds like the "internalised racism" nonsense that gets thrown at, say, blacks who disagree with the far-left. I mean, if the definition of the word we're using, racism, includes something you must believe, then you can't possibly be racist unconsciously. Otherwise, it broadens the word out of any reasonable use, and makes even relatively inocuous biases just as bad as actual racists.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but ponderingturtle illustrated the issue just a few posts ago when he flat out said that everyone's a racist. What's the point, then?

phiwum said:
Anecdotally, I agree. For instance, the notion of fake news has been coopted by the Trump administration very effectively.
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That's one of the examples I had in mind.
 
Information Analyst said:
Wasn't there some kerfuffle over some of the casting in The Hunger Games?
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I realize I'm late for the movie bit, & I may have missed where this was addressed.

It was about the fact that in the book the main character mentions that a little girl also in the contest reminds her of her sister & she winds up befriending her. She is white & the little girl is black. What the people who were outraged missed in the book is that the writer clearly describes the little girl as black.
 
Coming soon to a social media near you:

"Unconscious Racism"

From the creators of "Microagressions"
 
phiwum said:
I'm comfortable in saying that my unconscious biases are racist, though I try not to be racist.
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You can label your own unconscious biases however you like because you are capable of contextualizing your own thoughts.

Labeling other people's unconscious biases only works if you're psychic.

And again this is already assuming that we all agree what are and aren't "biases" which... we don't.


Lithrael said:
IMO the biggest problem here is it's one of the times when language is straight up not equipped for the discussions the culture wants to have, so some of the culture starts appropriating words and creating new ways to use them to say what they mean, and the rest of the culture is like WTF?!?!?

On the one hand you can't get (quickly) a useable language out of 10,000 people independently trying to redefine or create words; you can't have a conversation when you have to stop every two feet to get all the definitions straight. On the other hand, you have to get words and phrases for new concepts into the language somehow.

It'll take about two generations to iron out. It's happened before and it'll happen again.
Click to expand...

Okay that's all fine and dandy but given the emotional baggage the word "racism" has I'm not particularly in a rush to welcome the term be applied to me even if you're using it in some new "It's not a totally bad thing" way.

Getting called a racist is 1) Pretty much life ending and 2) impossible to defend yourself against so I don't really see the percentage anybody is seeing in broadening the term for... reasons.

"Once everybody understands they are all racist we can talk about and the problem will be solved" is a pretty far out there Liberal fantasy.
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
Coming soon to a social media near you:

"Unconscious Racism"

From the creators of "Microagressions"
Click to expand...

"Privilege" "Microaggression" "Culture of Racism" "Unconscious racism."

Progressives just have got to stop taking "Liberal White Guilt" off the shelf, slapping a new coat of paint on it and keep trying to sell it to me over and over.
 
Belz... said:
I mean, if the definition of the word we're using, racism, includes something you must believe, then you can't possibly be racist unconsciously. Otherwise, it broadens the word out of any reasonable use, and makes even relatively inocuous biases just as bad as actual racists.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but ponderingturtle illustrated the issue just a few posts ago when he flat out said that everyone's a racist. What's the point, then?
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Perfectly illustrating the problem here. The way most progressives are using the word they fully intentionally include relatively innocuous biases because they got tired of typing 'racial bias' and 90% of the time getting the same 'so you're calling me racist' reaction out of it anyway. AND because the cumulative effects of all this non-hateful racial bias are still seriously messing with people's lives and is there a single word better suited to describe it than 'racism'? We've got the much more precise term "white supremacist" for people who think minorities are literally inferior, though it's true if we take 'racist' and change its meaning from the one you've been using, then we no longer have a handy word for people that just dislike black people.

Why is there no point to the word if it describes something that nearly everyone does, isn't particularly their fault, and that, yet, it could make life a lot less of a slog for many people if everyone kept an eye out for it? You mean that it's not a pejorative anymore at that point? Is it pointless if it's not a pejorative?
 
It doesn't matter if you're using the term "racism" in some new approved "Woke" way when 95% of the population is still using it to mean "Intentional and harmful conscious bias based on skin tone."

That's how words work. If you call someone a "racist" you're calling them the most commonly accepted definition of the word, not your own.
 
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Lithrael said:
Perfectly illustrating the problem here. The way most progressives are using the word they fully intentionally include relatively innocuous biases because they got tired of typing 'racial bias' and 90% of the time getting the same 'so you're calling me racist' reaction out of it anyway.
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So they dropped the pretense and called them racist, instead. Not a good plan.

AND because the cumulative effects of all this non-hateful racial bias are still seriously messing with people's lives and is there a single word better suited to describe it than 'racism'?
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'Bias'.

Why is there no point to the word if it describes something that nearly everyone does, isn't particularly their fault, and that, yet, it could make life a lot less of a slog for many people if everyone kept an eye out for it?
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Because as Joe pointed out it's far from an innocuous accusation. It's one of the worst things you can be called in modern western society. So there's a disconnect somewhere in there.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Getting called a racist is 1) Pretty much life ending and 2) impossible to defend yourself against (...)
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I'll readily agree the social media life-ending thing is a huge problem that needs to be figured the **** out. There's an old NYT article that sums up my feelings there pretty well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html

But I'd say that's a much broader/different issue than just 'being called racist,' it's more like people getting caught in perfect storm type situations. There are millions of folks who make such innocuous/kidding comments who don't end up as the focus of **********. It's like we need to invent Internet ******* insurance to offset the damage suffered by these 'lucky' few when really, it could happen to anyone.

And there are plenty of people who get to publicly say awful things all day long and don't get dinged for it. It depends who you are I guess.
 
Lithrael said:
I'll readily agree the social media life-ending thing is a huge problem that needs to be figured the **** out.
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Okay so can we figure out the whole "Racism is the new 'You're a Witch.'" thing before people start using the term in new, novel ways?

Again even absent all this I'm just not getting the point behind broadening "racism" to mean more general biases. At absolute best it's emotionally loading the conversation, at worst it is straight up well poisoning.
 
This talk of language evolving and words shifting is the disguise that liars try to hide their lies behind.
 
Belz... said:
Because as Joe pointed out it's far from an innocuous accusation. It's one of the worst things you can be called in modern western society. So there's a disconnect somewhere in there.
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I guess I just don't get this. It must be a genuine disconnect.
 
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