Behaviorism and Biology+Mythology=?

[Cleopatra]

Mercutio and Prof.Corey help!

I was having a discussion with a professor of Physical Anthropology this afternoon and he told me that he was working on the relation between behaviors and biology. Ok. He mentioned to me a very good book though ( in greek I am afraid) where a colleague of his attemps to explain the Myths of the Greek Mythology under this prism.

I mean that according to his theory ,the myths ( of the Greeks in our case) are not just carriers of symbols, ideas and mentality,they don't only carry sperms of truth but in reality they try to talk about the repeated behaviors that are related with our existence ( in the sense of evolution).

He gave me a very interesting example. Let's take the myth of Hercules. According to the Myth, when Hercules was an infant in Argos and Hera was trying to extinct him because he was another "illegal" offspring of Zeus, she sent two gigantic serpents to suffocate him to death. Little Hercules though, grabbed them from their necks and killed them prooving his unique strength.

According to this prof. though the myth shows us that the Greeks have observed the strength that infants carry in their hands and fingers which is nothing but what humans have inherited by the primates whose infants can carry their own weight.

Anyway. Leaving this theory apart which is intersting but I don't know how it can be proved and if it can be proved I wonder if there are any resources for non-specialists to learn about the "inherited behaviors" ( do I call this right?).

Also, what you think about this theory. Do you see it possible for myths to talk about inherited behaviors and the most important question:

What evidence you would ask for in order to accept this theory?(--->I am asking this question to see the path of your thoughs and the related issues).

 

[Mercutio]

Mercutio and Prof.Corey help!

I was having a discussion with a professor of Physical Anthropology this afternoon and he told me that he was working on the relation between behaviors and biology. Ok. He mentioned to me a very good book though ( in greek I am afraid) where a colleague of his attemps to explain the Myths of the Greek Mythology under this prism.

This would be interesting--most often, such things are attacked within psychology by Jungians, and badly. It would be very interesting to see a better analysis.

As for behaviors & biology, you might be interested to note the connection between operant conditioning and evolution by natural selection. First, the mechanisms are analogous, if not identical: what works, sticks around, and what does not work is selected against (punished or extinguished). In fact (although I am not with my books right now), at least one author refers to natural selection as "phylogenetic learning"; that is, learning (a change in behavior as the result of interaction with the environment) that takes place not over the course of the organism's life, but over the course of its evolution.

I mean that according to his theory ,the myths (of the Greeks in our case) are not just carriers of symbols, ideas and mentality,they don't only carry sperms of truth but in reality they try to talk about the repeated behaviors that are related with our existence ( in the sense of evolution).

Myths are there to explain our behavior, I agree. One could also say that the myths which are more accepted by a society are the ones most likely to stick around--that is, that they will be selected for in the same sense that genes or behaviors will be!

He gave me a very interesting example. Let's take the myth of Hercules. According to the Myth, when Hercules was an infant in Argos and Hera was trying to extinct him because he was another "illegal" offspring of Zeus, she sent two gigantic serpents to suffocate him to death. Little Hercules though, grabbed them from their necks and killed them prooving his unique strength.

According to this prof. though the myth shows us that the Greeks have observed the strength that infants carry in their hands and fingers which is nothing but what humans have inherited by the primates whose infants can carry their own weight.

I have a video of the Behaviorist John B. Watson demonstrating this reflex with an infant. The baby is able to support his entire own weight while holding onto a rod.

Anyway. Leaving this theory apart which is intersting but I don't know how it can be proved and if it can be proved I wonder if there are any resources for non-specialists to learn about the "inherited behaviors" ( do I call this right?).

How do you mean? Are you looking for easily accessible information on human reflexes and fixed action patterns (essentially, more complex reflexes)? Or are you asking if it makes sense that non-systematic observation (say, of parents, etc) would be able to lead to knowledge about these inherited behaviors? (and yes, "inherited behaviors" is as good a label as any) If the latter, of course it is possible! If the former, I can look.

Also, what you think about this theory. Do you see it possible for myths to talk about inherited behaviors and the most important question:

Is it possible? I would think so...but of course you chose a myth which is consistent. We would have to look for disconfirming examples as well. And would you make a distinction between classic myths and more light-hearted "just-so stories"? (like "how the elephant got his trunk", featuring your crocodiles...although that is about physical characteristics, not behavior)

What evidence you would ask for in order to accept this theory?(--->I am asking this question to see the path of your thoughs and the related issues).

I am afraid I don't know enough about history to know what sort of "evidence" could even exist. What do we know about the origins of myths, that is not itself myth? But if we could get a sufficient "population" of myths, and examine them to see if they disconfirm the idea, we could fairly easily disprove the theory.

 

[Mercutio]

I am bumping this thread because it was mentioned in another thread--and this one, unlike that one, still has potential.

Have you given it any more thought, Cleo? Have you even seen it, Corey?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I suppose the best approach would be to analyze myths to see if they have parallels, for indstance if, say, Christian and Norse myths also had stories of strong-handed kids. Of course, such parallels might have other explanations.

Hans

 

[Jeff Corey]

Wow, that's a lot to deal with at once.
First, the theory does not appear to be falsifiable, hence it isn't scientific. And scientific theories are not said to be proven, but rather, "confirmed".
And that grasping reflex in infants is the palmar reflex and it disappears after six months or so. It may have been the source of the legend, but who knows?
As to good books on that topic, I'd have to consult with my friend in Biology who teaches that - I specialize in the learning part. It will have to wait until next week, since school is closed for the holidays.

 

[Mercutio]

It seems that some of these behaviors are explained in "just-so stories", which I do not know whether they rise to the level of "myth". Again, they attempt to explain, through some sort of story, behavior which is observed (Or physical characteristics--as in "how the elephant got its trunk"). Is the myth of Hercules (the story refered to in the OP, not the entire Hercules story) a "just-so story", or something more?

Such stories (the ones I can think of, anyway) are all Lamarkian, in that the inherited (or explained) characteristic originated in what happened to one individual. Perhaps the mythological versions are different in that they are understood to be something more than literal, but the pattern seems the same.

 

[Soapy Sam]

There's another facet to this. He is viewing a story purely as a device for communicating an idea,- ie a human tool.
Let's look at it from the story's point of view.

Stories are memes. They , too are subject to a form of selection. The good ones are, literally, memorable to humans. They do well in human minds. This means they have reproductive fidelity and fecundity. "Tell us the one about Hercules and the snakes, daddy!" Anyone who ever read a toddler her favourite story knows that you have to get it right, TO THE WORD, because she memorised it weeks ago.

We do not remember useful facts if they make lousy stories. If we did, we would have Sagas about Eve, the wise herb woman and her three hundred item list of worrywart and old man's beard and the 202 pharmaceutical uses thereof.


Remember that one from the Brothers Grimm?

Some stories survive by accident- because they were written down and the tablet survived under the earthquake debris, or because someone used it to fill a crack in the wall. That's memetic survival too, though by a different pathway. How would the prof's theory explain it?

ETA- I'd love to hear how he explains Perseus and Medusa.
Not to mention Oedipus.

 

[hodgy]

I think you could draw all sorts of conclusions from Mythology following the logic suggested in the Hercules example.

Might one go so far as to say the ride of the Valkyries predicted manned flight? Did Samson's hair show that we originated from hairy apes (and were physically stronger then)?

The link seems tenous and contrived to me.

 

[Wudang]

I've also read somewhere (Ed knows, maybe a cereal box) that myths also survive as a kind of social glue. The argument is that one reason a tribe is a tribe is that they share the same stories. OTOH maybe they share the same stories because they're in the same tribe and talk to each other.

 

[athon]

Just to add to this interesting discussion, I looked into myths as cultural memes once when I was doing some research on semiotics in modern and historical science. I started to figure it might make an interesting research project to see what changes are made as myths flow from one culture to another horizontally (same time period) and vertically (from one generation to the next). Are there any aspects that consistently remain the same? Any that consistently change? Are there defining aspects in cultures that borrow other memes, or conversely defining traits that reject other memes and retain their own?

Athon

 

[Mercutio]

There's another facet to this. He is viewing a story purely as a device for communicating an idea,- ie a human tool.
Let's look at it from the story's point of view.

Stories are memes. They , too are subject to a form of selection. The good ones are, literally, memorable to humans. They do well in human minds. This means they have reproductive fidelity and fecundity. "Tell us the one about Hercules and the snakes, daddy!" Anyone who ever read a toddler her favourite story knows that you have to get it right, TO THE WORD, because she memorised it weeks ago.
[snip]

What I like about this is that it is a much more parsimonious alternative to the all-too-common notion that such stories are evidence of a collective unconscious.