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The Trump Presidency (Act V - The One Where Everybody Dies)

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Crossbow said:
Say ...

If Trump really does believe that arming teachers will make things safer for students, then the White House staff should also be armed to make things safer for Trump.
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Sorry, that doesn't follow. Trump has armed protection already.

Mind you, I'm not in favor of arming teachers, but there are better arguments than this.
 
CapelDodger said:
I doubt you have the slightest idea how utterly weird your country seems out in the normal world. Schools as a low-key war-zone has actually become normalised in your thinking. "The answer is obvious : Kevlar vests should be part of a school's uniform. And bullet-proof textbooks should be standard." It beggars belief.
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This is exactly the sort of thing I was going to say.

When you are treating your schools like they are in a war zone then surely you have to stop and think that something is well and truly ********** up?
 
phiwum said:
Sorry, that doesn't follow. Trump has armed protection already.

Mind you, I'm not in favor of arming teachers, but there are better arguments than this.
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Oh really?

The school in Florida where the recent shooting took place also had an armed officer, and yet there were 17 murders there.
 
Dread Pirate Roberts said:
In fundraising speech, Trump says he made up facts in meeting with Justin Trudeau
http://wapo.st/2FJgDd0



I've spent a few minutes trying to formulate a comment to this. It is indeed incredible, I'll give him that...
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"It's called the bowling ball test, do you know what that is? That's where they take a bowling ball from 20 feet up in the air and they drop it on the hood of the car," Trump said of Japan. "And if the hood dents, then the car doesn't qualify. Well, guess what, the roof dented a little bit, and they said, nope, this car doesn't qualify. It's horrible, the way we're treated. It's horrible." It was unclear what he was talking about.
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Well duh. At least he's admitting he's completely clueless and just making stuff up. You couldn't ask for a better imbecile to alienate the US from all it's allies through inane lies to shield his own ego.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
I did not mean to make a case for arming select teachers, though I do not dismiss the idea out of hand.

My point was that cherry-picking accidental discharges by teachers as a reason not to arm teachers might not be the best reason. Using that logic, accidental discharges by soldiers or police officers or security guards could be pointed to as reasons to disarm those folks as well. What it really highlights is the need for better training.
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Fast Eddie B said:
I see a spectrum.

Arming a kindergarten teacher in Chicago is one thing.

Arming a Driver's Ed teacher who did a tour of duty in Afghanistan in a rural Wyoming school is another.

I think allowing state or local municipalities decide on a case-by-case basis is reasonable.
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I really don't get this line of argument. Soldiers, police, security guards need weapons as a function of their job. And yes some of them will make mistakes and accidentally discharge they're weapon but that's an unavoidable consequence of the role they perform for society. That just isn't the case for teachers. That's not their function.
 
ponderingturtle said:
When Trump fires Mueller what happens after that?
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The charges get handed over to NY Attorney General Eric Schneidermann, who unlike Mueller can indict Trump immediately on existing evidence and cannot be fired nor charges pardoned by the Federal government.

Then we get to see if a sitting president can be forcibly arrested.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
I think we can stipulate that accidental discharges of firearms occur. They happen with soldiers, police officers, and anyone who is obligated to carry a weapon as part of their job.

With proper training and properly maintained weapons, they should occur very rarely. In most instances one can point to “operator error”. It happens. And should be addressed on a case-by-case basis when it does.
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Unfortunately, a "case-by-case basis" usually means figuring out what happened after it's happened, and useful as it might be in overall progress, it's cold comfort to the people it's already happened to. If indeed, such accidents are simply inevitable, I would suppose one way to prevent them would be to remove the implements of accidental injury from places where the inevitable will have the most undesirable cost-benefit ratio. Like classrooms, maybe?
 
The Don said:
Unless the GOP grows a spine - absolutely nothing :(
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If they are going to grow one, they'll do it around July. The only way to salvage the midterm election is to keep sucking up to Trump until the primaries are over, then do a complete 180 and attack him with everything they've got. Impeachment hearings, everything. They have to appear more anti-Trump than the Democrats if they want to keep the existing Dem wave from becoming a tsunami.

But they can't do it until then, because their dwindling base is still conditioned to support whoever the most rabidly insane candidate appears to be. If they jump the gun they'll get primaried by someone who isn't just acting crazy.
 
It'd be nice if the GOP controlled congress could find even a semblance of a backbone.

The White House has refused to comply with all three investigations by the Republican-controlled House into the questionable behavior of President Donald Trump’s top aides, including Cabinet secretaries and son-in-law, Jared Kushner. And Republicans on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee are being criticized for accepting no for an answer rather than subpoena the documents.

The investigations involve three of the biggest controversies at the White House since Trump took office — aides using private email for government business, spending taxpayer money on costly private airplane travel and holding interim security clearances for long periods of time while handling the nation’s secrets.
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I thought using private email for government business was cause for incarceration.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
I think we can stipulate that accidental discharges of firearms occur. They happen with soldiers, police officers, and anyone who is obligated to carry a weapon as part of their job.

With proper training and properly maintained weapons, they should occur very rarely. In most instances one can point to “operator error”. It happens. And should be addressed on a case-by-case basis when it does.
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Indeed it does happen. In this case, three children were injured. This isn't a good auger that having more guns in schools would make children safer.
 
bruto said:
Unfortunately, a "case-by-case basis" usually means figuring out what happened after it's happened, and useful as it might be in overall progress, it's cold comfort to the people it's already happened to. If indeed, such accidents are simply inevitable, I would suppose one way to prevent them would be to remove the implements of accidental injury from places where the inevitable will have the most undesirable cost-benefit ratio. Like classrooms, maybe?
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Interestingly, this reserve police officer who was giving his students a lesson on gun safety wasn't even authorized to have a weapon in the school to begin with.

And when the gun went off it was because he was "making sure that it wasn't loaded".

So much for training, unless they are teaching that the way to check to make sure a gun (which wasn't supposed to be there to begin with) isn't loaded by pulling the trigger.*

At least he wasn't looking down the barrel to see if a bullet was in it when he did that.

I have to think that this goes well beyond the classification of occasional, unavoidable accidents, and clearly demonstrates that rules and training are not going to be the answer to the gun problems we are confronting.



* - My father gave me my first lesson in handling firearms when I was around ten years old. (Hey, it was the early Sixties. And it was West Virginia. By those standards I was something of a late bloomer.)

We went out to an open field with a hill at one end (Not hard to find in WV.) and he handed me the rifle, an old '42 Mossberg .22LR which I still have.

I was thrilled and excited. My very first time holding a real rifle.

He said,

"Don't be afraid, it isn't loaded yet. Just put it to your shoulder, and look down the barrel. Try to get the rear sight lined up with the front, and gently squeeze the trigger. Just to get the feel for it."
​

I did all that, and I can still remember the sound of that rifle going off to this day. It sounded louder than anything I had ever heard, and I swear it has never sounded that loud since then.

While I was still shaking from the shock and surprise, he then said;

"NEVER believe ANYONE when they tell you a gun isn't loaded. ALWAYS open it up, take it apart and check it YOURSELF."​

And I always have.
 
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quadraginta said:
Interestingly, this reserve police officer who was giving his students a lesson on gun safety wasn't even authorized to have a weapon in the school to begin with.

And when the gun went off it was because he was "making sure that it wasn't loaded".

So much for training, unless they are teaching that the way to check to make sure a gun (which wasn't supposed to be there to begin with) isn't loaded by pulling the trigger.*
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What was the exact nature of the failure that caused this discharge? I think it is highly unlikely that he was testing if it was loaded by pulling the trigger.
 
bruto said:
Unfortunately, a "case-by-case basis" usually means figuring out what happened after it's happened, and useful as it might be in overall progress, it's cold comfort to the people it's already happened to.
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Well, that's the idea. What that usually amounts to is sending "thoughts and prayers", and saying that "now is not the time to make any decisions about gun control".
 
Beelzebuddy said:
The charges get handed over to NY Attorney General Eric Schneidermann, who unlike Mueller can indict Trump immediately on existing evidence and cannot be fired nor charges pardoned by the Federal government.

Then we get to see if a sitting president can be forcibly arrested.
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Biggest crowd for a perp-walk EVER! :cool:
 
uke2se said:
A reserve cop isn't getting enough training?

How are these teachers supposed to be getting enough training to avoid accidental discharges amongst groups of children at the same time as they do their job - which is teaching children, not playing good guy - bad guy with crazed lunatics?
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As I've said before, full-time cops aren't getting enough training, and are often getting heavily flawed training. When police around the country say, over and over again, that they're far more concerned with "making it home safe", to the point where they shoot people for saying "I have a gun", or having a toy gun at a Wal-Mart, or for not following a litany of incoherent commands...why is anyone shocked when a few cops don't go charging in to take out an active shooter with an AR-15? This was bound to happen sooner or later.

As for teachers...well, what you said.
 
quadraginta said:
So much for training, unless they are teaching that the way to check to make sure a gun (which wasn't supposed to be there to begin with) isn't loaded by pulling the trigger.*

At least he wasn't looking down the barrel to see if a bullet was in it when he did that.
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That would be a learning experience for the kids that they wouldn't soon forget. Nor stop talking about.

How long would it be, I wonder, before the term "going postal" was replaced by "going educational" in common parlance?
 
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