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Let's talk about George

lomiller said:
I'd argue that there is a significant difference.

The left criticizes the Koch brothers because they support global warming denial. You will not typically see the left suggest the reason why global warming denial is bad is that the Koch's support it. Conversely, if you reference MMfA fact checking the "refutation" of it by those on the right will invariably at some point mention Soros as a reason it should not be trusted.
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And there doesn't seem to be the wide spread conspiracies about them that you see with Soros. Where are the equivelant of the main stream conservatives who think that Soros is behind the protests of florida students?

In general conspiracy theories seem to be much more common on the right wing right now.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
The policy of pissing in the pool and that of working to maintain the pool in good use are not morally/ethically equivalent, and have opposing practical outcomes in matters of fact.

To suggest they are equivalent is wildly disingenuous at best. It requires zero understanding of how the real world works, indeed, a willful misunderstanding of actions and consequences, and the relation of all that to one's own personal doings....
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The Big Dog said:
... Basically, the argument is that the asymmetrical rights of the individual to exploit, including its systemic repercussions, take precedence over the viability or continuity of the system for any or all others. IOW, a post-monarchist dystopia masquerading as grandiose "freedom" for highly motivated, or dubiously gifted, "reasoners."

Describes Soros to a tee.
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No, as the first part, quoted above, clearly refers to policies that are counter-factual, anti-science and self-serving. This is how they have opposite outcomes in practice, and why any old loose opinion is not the same as a considered position.

I'll make it easier for you:
  • Koch Bros: Support Big Oil vs efforts to curb AGW, reject facts.
  • Soros: Supports ecologically sustainable policies, accepts facts.
There you go. The alt-right "pees in the pool," day in, day out. The right is outside the domain of legitimate political discourse, and firmly ensconced in a position that requires propaganda to overcome its blatant falsehoods, and which serves a very clear agenda: "Money talks, all else STFU."
 
uke2se said:
But Adelson isn't getting the same treatment as Soros. How do you explain that?

In case you didn't knew, Adelson isn't the same person as the Koch brothers, your last tu quoque.
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I'm not making any sort of moral equivalence argument, its just a functional one. Soros is famous in part because he spends a lot on dems. He's the first guy who's name comes up when you look up, "who spends the most on dems".

I only mention Adelson in this case because his name shows up on that list, obviously conservatives aren't going to think a guy on their side is a baddy.
Honestly, I don't know why Adelson isn't more of a boogey man, my M-I-L sure hates him but he doesn't get nearly the hate that the Kochs get, maybe because the Kochs do spend money on obviously bad things like climate change. If you look up companies that spend a lot on GMO or are big agribusiness companies, several show up but you don's see BASF or ADM getting near the hate as Monsanto. Why not, I don't know.
 
uke2se said:
I see we're already in conspiracy theory land.

However, a lot of the posting right wingers missed the point I was making. Saying the left's criticism of the Koch brothers is the same thing as the rights hatred towards Soros is a false equivalency unless you can point to what it is that is being criticised. If we disregard conspiracy theories like the ones The Big Dog is pushing, what has George Soros done that's so bad?

Or let me put it another way, do American conservatives think working to strenghtening liberal democracy or promoting human and civil rights is a bad thing? 'Cause that's what Soros' organizations are doing.
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Do American liberals think supporting American business and encouraging personal responsibility is a bad thing? 'Cause that's what the Koch's organizations are doing.

It's all just a matter of perspective. You are giving Soros credit for the good things he is doing (and rightly so) but ignoring the negative consequences of those actions (the harm to business, etc). The Koch brothers are on the opposite side of that equation. That's all there is to it. Neither of them are really boogeymen, just convenient targets for hate. We need both sides and we need compromise; we don't need more partisan stupidity.
 
People hate Soros and the Koch brothers for the same reasons: propaganda and conspiracy theories about them spread by the other side. Freakanomics had a good podcast about Charles Koch and in it, he talks a lot about his political activities. Is there really anything there that makes him a boogeyman? Of course not. It's what is said about him by the left that makes him a boogeyman. Same thing for Soros: Actually listen to the guy and he is just another guy who is passionate about his causes and has the resources to organize action towards them. He's not evil; he's just liberal. I think it's high time that "liberal" and "conservative" stop becoming bad words we use to attack others because after all the rhetoric and mudslinging, we are getting nowhere.
 
xjx388 said:
People hate Soros and the Koch brothers for the same reasons: propaganda and conspiracy theories about them spread by the other side. Freakanomics had a good podcast about Charles Koch and in it, he talks a lot about his political activities. Is there really anything there that makes him a boogeyman? Of course not. It's what is said about him by the left that makes him a boogeyman. Same thing for Soros: Actually listen to the guy and he is just another guy who is passionate about his causes and has the resources to organize action towards them. He's not evil; he's just liberal. I think it's high time that "liberal" and "conservative" stop becoming bad words we use to attack others because after all the rhetoric and mudslinging, we are getting nowhere.
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Agreed. I thought that the Koch interview on Radiolab was great. I disagree with a lot of his policies, but he's not a bad man.

I know less about Soros, but using one's wealth to promote political change isn't fundamentally bad. There's an obvious concern that doing so dilutes the influence of the less affluent. Not sure how to properly preclude that issue.
 
xjx388 said:
People hate Soros and the Koch brothers for the same reasons: propaganda and conspiracy theories about them spread by the other side.
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What are the conspiracy theories about the Koch bros? Is there anything on par with this out there?

http://humansarefree.com/2014/08/george-soros-and-bill-melinda-gates.html


Added to which, the genesis of Ebola seems to have come from a nucleus which has, at its centre, a bioweapons lab owned by multi billionaires George Soros and Bill and Melinda Gates.
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Or...

https://ecolibertyblog.wordpress.co...to-be-vegans-and-not-be-able-to-eat-real-eat/
The animal rights movement are funded by the Globalist like George Soros to push us to vegans and not be able to eat real meat which contain the real essential nutrients like protein, Omega fatty acids, Vitamin B12 and so on; the Lab grown meat are not going to contain those essential nutrient. The Globalist knows we need to meat as well eating plant to keep healthy; they’re going keep on eating meat and eating a high fat diet because our body needs fats especially for our brain because our brain contains mostly fat. The Globalist does not want us to be healthy because want to control us to continue their depopulation agenda.
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Or...

https://gloria.tv/article/EaDvg8CXv1m811ZRRnEfpTZHt
The Soros Plan Is a Satanic Assault on Europe

Included: Soros involved in the latest las vegas false flag?
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xjx388 said:
People hate Soros and the Koch brothers for the same reasons: propaganda and conspiracy theories about them spread by the other side. Freakanomics had a good podcast about Charles Koch and in it, he talks a lot about his political activities. Is there really anything there that makes him a boogeyman? Of course not. It's what is said about him by the left that makes him a boogeyman. Same thing for Soros: Actually listen to the guy and he is just another guy who is passionate about his causes and has the resources to organize action towards them. He's not evil; he's just liberal. I think it's high time that "liberal" and "conservative" stop becoming bad words we use to attack others because after all the rhetoric and mudslinging, we are getting nowhere.
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The Koch advocacy group, Americans for Prosperity, has done some incredibly sketchy things, e.g. posting fake eviction notices on homes to manipulate voters. Just saying.
 
ahhell said:
I'm not making any sort of moral equivalence argument, its just a functional one. Soros is famous in part because he spends a lot on dems. He's the first guy who's name comes up when you look up, "who spends the most on dems".

I only mention Adelson in this case because his name shows up on that list, obviously conservatives aren't going to think a guy on their side is a baddy.
Honestly, I don't know why Adelson isn't more of a boogey man, my M-I-L sure hates him but he doesn't get nearly the hate that the Kochs get, maybe because the Kochs do spend money on obviously bad things like climate change. If you look up companies that spend a lot on GMO or are big agribusiness companies, several show up but you don's see BASF or ADM getting near the hate as Monsanto. Why not, I don't know.
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Soros is also famous for being the villain behind every plot to take away your guns, every demonstration were violent leftists beat up fine upstanding alt-righters, every aborted baby. In the populist right's Europe, he's also responsible for every refugee invader crossing our borders.

There is no functional similarity between what is said about Soros and what is said about the Kochs, Adelson or whatever other tu quoque you want to offer up.
 
xjx388 said:
People hate Soros and the Koch brothers for the same reasons: propaganda and conspiracy theories about them spread by the other side. Freakanomics had a good podcast about Charles Koch and in it, he talks a lot about his political activities. Is there really anything there that makes him a boogeyman? Of course not. It's what is said about him by the left that makes him a boogeyman. Same thing for Soros: Actually listen to the guy and he is just another guy who is passionate about his causes and has the resources to organize action towards them. He's not evil; he's just liberal. I think it's high time that "liberal" and "conservative" stop becoming bad words we use to attack others because after all the rhetoric and mudslinging, we are getting nowhere.
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But the hatred manifests very differently, and that's what I'm getting at here. There are nowhere nears as many conspiracy theories, and nowhere near as much irrational bile directed at the Koch brothers as there is towards Soros.
 
xjx388 said:
Do American liberals think supporting American business and encouraging personal responsibility is a bad thing? 'Cause that's what the Koch's organizations are doing.

It's all just a matter of perspective. You are giving Soros credit for the good things he is doing (and rightly so) but ignoring the negative consequences of those actions (the harm to business, etc). The Koch brothers are on the opposite side of that equation. That's all there is to it. Neither of them are really boogeymen, just convenient targets for hate. We need both sides and we need compromise; we don't need more partisan stupidity.
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Promoting climate change denial seems like a pretty shortsighted thing to do. It will leave our planet worse off but the Kochs better off.
 
I'll try a different question to attempt to coax our conservative posters into actually engaging honestly:

I don't like the Koch brothers because they promote science denial and deregulating pollution. The Koch brothers give money to GOP representatives in order to promote science denial and deregulate pollution.

Now you do a madlib. Fill in the blanks:

"I don't like George Soros because ______________________. George Soros gives money to Democratic representatives in order to __________________________."

As always, try to avoid conspiracy theories.
 
uke2se said:
I'll try a different question to attempt to coax our conservative posters into actually engaging honestly:

I don't like the Koch brothers because they promote science denial and deregulating pollution. The Koch brothers give money to GOP representatives in order to promote science denial and deregulate pollution.

Now you do a madlib. Fill in the blanks:

"I don't like George Soros because ______________________. George Soros gives money to Democratic representatives in order to __________________________."

As always, try to avoid conspiracy theories.
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All the research on human psychology, decision making, and ideology really suggests that you don't like the Kochs because they're on the other side and everything after that is just justification. The same is true of conservatives. So, asking "why do you hate Soros?" Will only give you rationalizations that are largely post hoc when the real answer is, "he's on the other side".

There's a great podcast called, "You are not so smart" who's latest episode 122, Psychology of Tribalism, as some bearing on this conversation. There's research that attacking someone's political party will make them more antagonistic than attacking their ideas even when those ideas are clearly associated with the party. All anyone needs to hate Soros is that he attacks their tribe.

There's also some interesting research discussed in the episodes that folks assigned to random groups will almost immediately start disliking another random group. Tribalism seems deeply ingrained in us.

For the record, I don't really hate either Soros or the Kochs, I'm more amused and confused by the irrationality surrounding them than anything.
 
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uke2se said:
We're seeing false equivalency in action. I was afraid this would be the response from our resident conservatives, and they would not and could not engage this topic in an honest manner.
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Seriously. It took me less than 5 minutes to find links on claims that Soros was behind Ebola, veganism as depopulation scheme, and the Vegas shooting as a false flag.
 
ahhell said:
All the research on human psychology, decision making, and ideology really suggests that you don't like the Kochs because they're on the other side ...
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Can you please just answer what you personally find objectionable about Soros in terms of policies he promotes?
 
ahhell said:
For the record, I don't really hate either Soros or the Kochs, I'm more amused and confused by the irrationality surrounding them than anything.
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It isn't the same. The Koch's are disliked for the policies they openly support. Soros is accused of being behind things that he isn't.
 
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