School shooting Florida

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Have teacher's unions been weighing in on the idea of arming teachers? I'd assume they'd be unenthusiastic but I haven't actually heard anything.
 
William Parcher said:
How many rounds are police saying he fired?
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Well, there's this from the NYT;

Not a single law enforcement officer appears to have fired their gun inside Stoneman Douglas High — an indication of how little the police could do once the suspect had fled after firing more than 100 rounds down the hallways and into four classrooms on two floors of the freshman building. The authorities said he had enough time to make it to the third floor to take off a tactical vest and drop off his weapon and high-capacity magazines in a stairwell.
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What's your reasoning for being so intensely skeptical of the idea that some of them might have penetrated walls?

It seems much more likely than not to me.
 
isissxn said:
Word salad.

How come the 2nd Amendment is sacrosanct, but the 21st overturned the 18th with the ease of an old man sliding into a warm bath? I don't get "out" into other web-forums much, but do any of these constitutional purists fret about that violation of the document's integrity?

Is it just because the 2nd is part of the original Bill of Rights?
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Republicans couldn't care less about the Bill of Rights. Most of it they are militantly against. They'd like to shred the 1st Amendment and use the pieces to burn reporters at the stake.

They want to sanctify the 2nd Amendment only because it plays to their new base of right-wing-nut whackos. If it didn't they'd probably hate that one too.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
They have gone christian dominionist like most of the GOP. Not exactly a surprise. They have been on the CNN is fake news train for a while.

I expect them to start calling these shootings hoaxes pretty soon. But as they write most of the gun laws that can actually get passed like all those in florida they are the real representatives of american gun owners.
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I'm pretty sure that started within a matter of a few hours after news of the shooting first broke.

Probably less than that.
 
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quadraginta said:
What's your reasoning for being so intensely skeptical of the idea that some of them might have penetrated walls?

It seems much more likely than not to me.
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I'm skeptical because it hasn't yet been reported (or confirmed) by authorities. I believe that it would be an unprecedented event for a school shooting even though others have used high-powered rifles for these spree shootings.

"Investigators say: Students killed when gunman fires through walls." That is one that I don't believe I've heard before and it's rather major. It should be made known that walls cannot protect anyone when school spree shooters come.

I would have expected it to have been announced by now if it had happened. It would be very easy for authorities to say "some were hit by bullets that had passed through walls".

But if no bullets passed through walls then they aren't going to say anything about it. They might not even say it as a way of correcting mistaken students either.
 
quadraginta said:
I don't think you have the hang of this skepticism thing yet.

You still aren't doing it right.
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What is the correct way to say that you are skeptical of the claim that bullets passed through walls?

Teach me how to do skepticism correctly for that.
 
Belz... said:
Of course. I didn't say they didn't, or imply it, which is why Fudbucker's response is so silly. Instead of responding to what I actually wrote, he extrapolated another opinion from it than the one I hold, and then assumed he interpreted right and answered that. The essence of the strawman.
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Yeah, in retrospect, I should have actually quoted Fudbucker. I was agreeing with you and building upon it. The way I quoted it made that unclear. Sorry!
 
Stacko said:
So much for the good guy with a gun.
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Of course the "good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun" meme is total BS. Its almost always too late (how often has a "good guy with a gun" ever stopped a "bad guy with a gun" before "the bad guy with a gun" has already started killing people?) and it often works the other way; (how often has the "bad guy with a gun" ended up killing the "good guy with a gun" instead?)
 
smartcooky said:
Of course the "good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun" meme is total BS. Its almost always too late (how often has a "good guy with a gun" ever stopped a "bad guy with a gun" before "the bad guy with a gun" has already started killing people?) and it often works the other way; (how often has the "bad guy with a gun" ended up killing the "good guy with a gun" instead?)
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And not every "good guy with a gun" is cut out to be a hero in a particular moment. While a trained officer should be able to do better, it's completely understandable that someone else would prioritize personal safety over maybe saving someone else, even if they had a gun.
 
Civet said:
Have teacher's unions been weighing in on the idea of arming teachers? I'd assume they'd be unenthusiastic but I haven't actually heard anything.
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Arming teachers has to be just about THE most stupid idea ever, period! Its not everyone who is capable of pointing a gun at someone and killing them. Arming teachers will get them killed, and could end up being a total disaster.

Its an idea born out of desperation... the gun lobby are grasping at anything, ANYTHING rather than risk losing the ability to play with their dick substitutes.
 
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smartcooky said:
Of course the "good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun" meme is total BS. Its almost always too late (how often has a "good guy with a gun" ever stopped a "bad guy with a gun" before "the bad guy with a gun" has already started killing people?) and it often works the other way; (how often has the "bad guy with a gun" ended up killing the "good guy with a gun" instead?)
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Apparently, you think it's better to simply be dead meat as opposed to having the means of defending either yourself or others.
 
William Parcher said:
I'm skeptical because it hasn't yet been reported (or confirmed) by authorities. I believe that it would be an unprecedented event for a school shooting even though others have used high-powered rifles for these spree shootings.
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Why? It is such a mundane likelihood when someone is firing indiscriminately from a high powered weapon that some of the rounds would penetrate walls that they probably think it hardly seems worth making a point of.

Casual mention is sufficient.

"Investigators say: Students killed when gunman fires through walls." That is one that I don't believe I've heard before and it's rather major. It should be made known that walls cannot protect anyone when school spree shooters come.
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We've been talking about rounds penetrating the walls. You seem to think that is so stupefyingly unlikely that you can blithely disregard eyewitness accounts. They may or may not have hit anyone. I agree that we don't have enough evidence to know or even suspect that they did, but you were extending your "skepticism" to even the idea that wall were penetrated at all.

There is no good reason to do that. There is enough reason to suggest that it is likely that they were.

I would have expected it to have been announced by now if it had happened. It would be very easy for authorities to say "some were hit by bullets that had passed through walls".

But if no bullets passed through walls then they aren't going to say anything about it. They might not even say it as a way of correcting mistaken students either.
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And they may not know yet the exact paths which were taken by each and every round that hit someone. Even if they did, I don't expect a graphic description of each and every one.

But that isn't the point.

You have done nothing to support the idea that it is even unlikely, much less so doubtful that the statements of eyewitnesses who say they saw bullets penetrate the walls can be casually disregarded.
 
Reheat said:
Apparently, you think it's better to simply be dead meat as opposed to having the means of defending either yourself or others.
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You are approaching this from the point of view of a person confident with guns; you are already capable, so you can't see another viewpoint, and cannot understand that you cannot simply give some teachers some guns and expect them to do the job... and in any case.... ITS NOT THEIR JOB!!!

It would be like me handing a person who has never played golf before (I play off a 3 handicap) a ball, tee and driver, and expecting them to tee up the ball and drive it 300 yds dead straight down the middle of the fairway, and then being astonished when they cannot do it.

Shooting accurately is a skill that is difficult to master
Shooting accurately at living people is an even more difficult skill to master (both physically and mentally).
Shooting accurately at living people such that you don't shoot any of the people you are trying to save is a skill that only a tiny percentage of the population will ever master.

Besides which, your "good guy with a gun", the teacher, is going to be the first target of the shooter. take out the teachers, and the opposition has gone.
 
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smartcooky said:
You are approaching this from the point of view of a person confident with guns; you are already capable, so you can't see another viewpoint, and cannot understand that you cannot simply give some teachers some guns and expect them to do the job... and in any case.... ITS NOT THEIR JOB!!!

It would be like me handing a person who has never played golf before (I play off a 3 handicap) a ball, tee and driver, and expecting them to tee up the ball and drive it 300 yds dead straight down the middle of the fairway, and then being astonished when they cannot do it.

Shooting accurately is a skill that is difficult to master
Shooting accurately at living people is an even more difficult skill to master (both physically and mentally).
Shooting accurately at living people such that you don't shoot any of the people you are trying to save is a skill that only a tiny percentage of the population will ever master.
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You're not keeping up. AFAIK there is no serious proposal to arm all or even most teachers. It would only be for those who want to do it, so it would be totally voluntary. They would received training and recurrent training and would be paid extra for this JOB. Do not presume there are no teachers who might be highly qualified for this type of duty. There are more than a few ex-military that are also teachers after they retire from military service.

On the other hand, there are some teachers who would be totally unqualified to do this, so that's not a problem.

Some are doing it already. There was an interview of a female teacher just a short time ago on Martha McCallum's program from Utah who carries a concealed weapon in her classroom daily.
 
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