CNN: Dreamers will leave the US if DACA falls through

[Porpoise of Life]

Knock knock?


Anyone want to take this?

I think anyone who'd take the 'just deport them, not our concern what happens to them' position is going to object to the point and laugh part of your question (not because they won't, but because it makes them look like cartoon villains).

But yeah, what else are they going to do? If the argument is that people who grew up in the US don't belong there because of their paperwork and allowing them to stay would set a bad precedent, why help them get back on their feet in their parents' country? The whole argument is that it's none of the US's business what happens to them.
And if the argument is that letting them continue their lives is somehow more expensive than finding, detaining and deporting all of them, then why would those who object for financial reasons want to spend a dime on them once they're across the border?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Well sure, that is what we would do if we actually wanted to reduce illegal immigration. However, that would deprive businesses of their supply of cheap, disposable exploitable labor. Illegal immigrants are going to take whatever wages they can get, as long as they are better than what they can get in Mexico or whatever other country they came from. They are not likely to complain about wage and hour or safety violations, and they can be laid off without having to pay unemployment compensation.

IMO, the real goal of many ostensibly anti-immigrant people is to maintain the status quo. That is why they support mostly ineffective stuff like walls or other "border security" measures, and push propaganda to keep anger directed at the immigrants themselves, rather than the people employing them. They don't really want to stop illegal immigration. Neither do they want to see illegal immigrants granted legal residency or citizenship, as legal residents or citizens would likely be less inclined to put up with bad treatment.

QFT

 

[Civet]

While I favor keeping them because I think their presence ultimately benefits the United States and me personally, I think a lot of the Mexican Dreamers would eventually do okay in Mexico and would likely contribute to improving that country. Different situation for those who come from other countries, obviously.

 

[theprestige]

I mean, maybe we should be a little more concerned about sending illegal immigrants back to ******** countries... It's not like these poor children chose for their parents to put them in this awkward situation. And it's not like their parents gave them much of a choice about getting out of it.

Now they're adults, living illegally in the US, and it's time for them to start making their own choices about how to deal with the life they've been given. Do we owe it to them, to give them a choice about staying here versus returning to some ******** country? Or do we continue to hold their parents responsible for the choices they made on their children's behalf, and the legal and practical consequences of those choices?

 

[Upchurch]

Now they're adults, living illegally in the US, and it's time for them to start making their own choices about how to deal with the life they've been given. Do we owe it to them, to give them a choice about staying here versus returning to some ******** country? Or do we continue to hold their parents responsible for the choices they made on their children's behalf, and the legal and practical consequences of those choices?

By all accounts, Dreamers have been heavily vetted and have made a great effort to make right events that were beyond their control. By registering for the DACA program, they took a grave risk to try to legalize their presence in this country. Do we owe them that chance? Arguably, we do or else be guilty of history's biggest bait-and-switch since the Trojan Horse.

Even if the DACA program had never existed, I think an argument could easily be made that we don't so much owe it to them, as we owe it to our ancestors who immigrated here, some by choice and some without any choice at all.

Personally, I think trying to frame illegal immigration as being even in the upper half of our problems as a country is ridiculous and an appeal to white nationalists.

 

[CORed]

I mean, maybe we should be a little more concerned about sending illegal immigrants back to ******** countries... It's not like these poor children chose for their parents to put them in this awkward situation. And it's not like their parents gave them much of a choice about getting out of it.

Now they're adults, living illegally in the US, and it's time for them to start making their own choices about how to deal with the life they've been given. Do we owe it to them, to give them a choice about staying here versus returning to some ******** country? Or do we continue to hold their parents responsible for the choices they made on their children's behalf, and the legal and practical consequences of those choices?

IMO, compassion and human decency would dictate that "dreamers" (I don't really care for that term, but it is the popularly used one) be given an opportunity to stay legally, with an option for citizenship, if they desire. As you said, it wasn't their choice to come here, and many of them came here at an early enough age that they really don't know any other home. Though I am in general fairly sympathetic to illegal immigrants, those who came here as adults did so of their own free will, knowing that deportation is a likely consequence if they get caught. Those brought here as children by their parents made no such choice.

While Obama's executive action to defer deportation was a step in the right direction, it's really not enough. If we are not going to deport them, they should be granted full legal status.

 

[applecorped]

When life hands you lemons blame a political party

 

[beren]

When life hands you lemons blame a political party

When innocent people are being mistreated, play politics and refuse to help them, you mean?
I mean, that's the Republican modus operandi here.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Thanks, but I'm not actually making a Christian argument.

Maybe not making the argument, but you laid out how it could best be done based on the source material. I wonder why that isn't a Christian argument?

 

[JoeMorgue]

What happens to these people who probably don't even have a place? They just get thrown over the border while heartless ***** point and laugh?

I'm not sure why the dreamers want to do their dreaming in a sexist, misogynistic, homophobic country run by a racist anyways.

#adiosfelicia

There's a running gag in the immigration debate called "Schrodinger's Immigrant" a jab at the common talking points that immigrants are paradoxically both here to steal our jobs and go on welfare/commit crimes.

One could almost counter that with "Schrodinger's America" a horrible vile 3rd world country, not a wonderful perfect utopia with no social problems like say Sweden, that nobody should want to live in... that's its a damn near human rights violation if you kick somebody out of.

But in seriousness I think a sort of base difference related to all that where or problems lie.

At its most basic moral level, is removing someone from your country because they didn't follow the rules of entrance into your country, a punishment or just... returning the status quo?

Has an immigrant been "punished" in any meaningful sense of the term if they enter the country without due process, are discovered, and returned to their original country of origin?

 

[Craig4]

Well, most of the "dreamers" may just stay. https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics/2017

ICE conducted about 226,000 removals last year. The report doesn't break it down but having worked for the legacy agency, INS most of those were voluntary returns. If there are 11 million undocumented in this country, it will take us 48 years to get rid of all of them.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

At its most basic moral level, is removing someone from your country because they didn't follow the rules of entrance into your country, a punishment or just... returning the status quo?

Has an immigrant been "punished" in any meaningful sense of the term if they enter the country without due process, are discovered, and returned to their original country of origin?

If they enter your country in May and get sent back in November, probably not. If they enter when they are 5 and get sent back when they are 22 then almost certainly yes. I thought that was what this thread was about?

 

[mikado]

I am constantly astounded by the lack of humanity often displayed ( amazingly by those who claim their religiousity the loudest)


Funny how us evil atheists don't make those claims,,,

 

[theprestige]

I am constantly astounded by the lack of humanity often displayed ( amazingly by those who claim their religiousity the loudest)


Funny how us evil atheists don't make those claims,,,

To be clear: you think it's inhumane to deport people back to the ******** country they came from.

Is that correct.

 

[fagin]

To be clear: you think it's inhumane to deport people back to the ******** country they came from.

Is that correct.

If they enter your country in May and get sent back in November, probably not. If they enter when they are 5 and get sent back when they are 22 then almost certainly yes. I thought that was what this thread was about?

Yes.

 

[The Big Dog]

I am constantly astounded by the lack of humanity often displayed ( amazingly by those who claim their religiousity the loudest)

Funny how us evil atheists don't make those claims,,,

You know that these people are “threatening” to voluntarily leave right?

I get that patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.

 

[fagin]

You know that these people are “threatening” to voluntarily leave right?

I get that patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.

Threatening is a strong word. And one you made up in this context.

That rather unpleasant website (funny, they use 'adorable' just like you do) actually just says they will leave.

I suppose it is an option to being officially deported.

But perhaps patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.

 

[The Big Dog]

Threatening is a strong word. And one you made up in this context.

That rather unpleasant website (funny, they use 'adorable' just like you do) actually just says they will leave.

I suppose it is an option to being officially deported.

But perhaps patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.

From CNN: “these Dreamers will leave the US if a DACA deal isn't reached.”

I don’t think CNN is that unpleasant, but I see your point.

 

[fagin]

'k

The website linked, and the 'adorable' bit was twitchy.com, not CNN, but you know that, don't you?

 

[The Big Dog]

'k

The website linked, and the 'adorable' bit was twitchy.com, not CNN, but you know that, don't you?

Oh dear, you didn’t say “linked” in the op. The source article was cnn, but you knew that, didn’t you.

The good news is you have walked back that silly bit about them not threatening to leave “if” they didn’t get their way, just like all those knuckleheads who said they were going to leave when Trump won.

Knuckleheads, amiright?