Proof of Immortality, VII

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I do want OOFLam to be wrong. I do have a bias. And, I have to wonder why no one else has brought up my objection to OOFLam if I'm right about it...

You can't possibly be serious.

A year and a half or so ago you wrote a long, angsty post telling us how you came to this theory in your teens. You told us how invested you were in it emotionally. Not just that, you told us that unless you could prove your theory mathematically, you would be emotionally devastated. Not only did you admit to a strong personal bias, you went on to admit that this bias is, for all intents and purposes, insurmountable. You're going to be emotionally devastated (your words, if I recall) if you can't make this proof work. How does that give anyone any confidence that a conversation with you about the errors in your proof would be productive?

Since you wrote that post I have brought up its admissions at least monthly. Trying to gaslight a newcomer into believing your critics haven't touched on your bias is as low as it gets. I would say it's a new low for you, but I've come to the conclusion that there is no limit to how low your argument can go.

Which brings us to the acute topic: why you incessantly, habitually, and thoroughly lie about what your critics have or haven't said. You seem to find it remarkably easy to misrepresent other points of view, or simply lie about the facts of what was said or done. Just bald-faced lies, unashamedly so. This is deeply concerning. It's not just once or twice. It's the rule by which you seem to treat all criticism. I'm not going to pretend I'm concerned about your mental health or whatever. I'm going to point out just how pointedly rude it is for you to continue to solicit feedback when all the evidence shows you're just going to invariably lie about it. This is not acceptable behavior in a civil society.

But then, I think that the easiest way to judge my claim is to analyze the specific numbers I use.

No. The easiest way to judge your claim is to look at the myriad fundamental ways it is broken before we even get to the part where you choose your numbers. You've admitted you can't redeem your argument at that most fundamental level, so all this quibbling over what number we should use is just you constantly distracting from an obvious failure by obsessing over detail.

Re prior probabilities. I could use .999 and .001, or even .9999 and .0001 instead, and still easily win the argument -- if my likelihoods are correct, or anywhere near correct.

Yes, and do you remember what all those statisticians told you was wrong with a model that did that? You have a model whose output in the form of a posterior probability is nearly perfectly unrelated to its priors. You "graciously" allow for wiggle room in the priors knowing full well that it will make absolutely no difference in the answer. That's not math. That's just sleazy salesmanship. It's offering to throw in the undercoating for free when you know the undercoating is already free, just to curry favor with people who should be otherwise skeptical. Except here people know math. They can see what you're trying to do, and they rightly don't let you. This happens everywhere you take your theory and the audience knows math. You're clearly only able to put on a song and dance that you hope fools sychophants into being your fans.

Your likelihoods are completely made up and completely unjustified. You know this, which is why you have to keep resorting to non-mathematical methods such as lying and gaslighting to try to establish them. And then you get all offended and accusatory when it doesn't work. Your argument is little more than a poorly-executed used car salesman's spiel, and it deserves exactly the response it's getting.
 
So you were refuting Belz with a piece of satire?


ETA: or is this just the latest instance where a claim by the "skeptics" side gets refuted, and as a response it gets presented as "just satire" (or "we're just repeating what Jabba says")? Because I can clearly see the claim in Belz's post you quoted and then immediately repeated.

No, the whole thing was what's technically known as "a joke". You may have come across them before.

Dave
 
No, the whole thing was what's technically known as "a joke". You may have come across them before.



Dave



Bad jokes that are taken seriously are one of the defining features of this thread. Just look at Jabba’s arguments and thesis for an example. This thread is based upon a bad joke that an old man has clung to pathetically since he was a teenager. I’d be hard pressed to think of a sadder joke.
 
Thermal,
- I do want OOFLam to be wrong. I do have a bias. And, I have to wonder why no one else has brought up my objection to OOFLam if I'm right about it...

Jabba:
Isn't a strong bias towards a desired result a problem in it's own way? One that would have to be overcome in order to have an objective discussion? I completely get the fascination with what you are trying to prove- it's an intriguing idea. But what would you say is the probability that you are not accepting valid criticism while under this bias?

- But then, I think that the easiest way to judge my claim is to analyze the specific numbers I use. Re prior probabilities. I could use .999 and .001, or even .9999 and .0001 instead, and still easily win the argument -- if my likelihoods are correct, or anywhere near correct.

Ok, so the outcome is not influenced by the priors? Then we can fairly do away with discussion of their values. The likelihoods are damn near impossible to evaluate, AFAICS. Except for OOFL itself (no need for the 'am', unless we are factoring in partial, zero, or negative lives). This is what I was trying to say earlier: of all the variables, priors, probabilities, etc that you are using, only OOFL seems to have observational data which could support it, it's probability approaching 1.

In light of your bias, have you run the formula with H being 'one infinite life' or 'multiple finite lives'? I'm sure you have. Is the end probability also zero?

- I think that your wording above is a little off the mark. Re "The specific values of the priors are not relevant till you justify the base assumption, that the probability of H/OOFLam could be meaningfully calculated at all. Re that hilited part, I think you meant, "likelihood of E (my current existence) given H/OOFLam."
- Re, "Or looked at another way, H is the only value that could be supported by observation," I think that by the hilited portion, you meant, "H is the only hypothesis."
- If I'm right about your intended meanings, I'll try to address them. If I'm wrong, please try to further explain them.
-

Wording was sloppy, yes. I don't think E has any significance at all. I was trying to say that OOFL is the only element that could justifiably be assigned a likelihood, in that humans are repeatedly observed to have only one finite life. The other likelihoods I would need to see some support for.

I don't think H is the only hypothesis. I think it is the only one that a justifiable likelihood can be assigned to.
 
Jabba:
Isn't a strong bias towards a desired result a problem in it's own way? One that would have to be overcome in order to have an objective discussion? I completely get the fascination with what you are trying to prove- it's an intriguing idea. But what would you say is the probability that you are not accepting valid criticism while under this bias?



Ok, so the outcome is not influenced by the priors? Then we can fairly do away with discussion of their values. The likelihoods are damn near impossible to evaluate, AFAICS. Except for OOFL itself (no need for the 'am', unless we are factoring in partial, zero, or negative lives). This is what I was trying to say earlier: of all the variables, priors, probabilities, etc that you are using, only OOFL seems to have observational data which could support it, it's probability approaching 1.

In light of your bias, have you run the formula with H being 'one infinite life' or 'multiple finite lives'? I'm sure you have. Is the end probability also zero?



Wording was sloppy, yes. I don't think E has any significance at all. I was trying to say that OOFL is the only element that could justifiably be assigned a likelihood, in that humans are repeatedly observed to have only one finite life. The other likelihoods I would need to see some support for.

I don't think H is the only hypothesis. I think it is the only one that a justifiable likelihood can be assigned to.
Thermal,
- As much as possible, I need to reduce each of my responses to one sub-issue at a time.
- Do you think that you had to exist?
 
Thermal,
- As much as possible, I need to reduce each of my responses to one sub-issue at a time.
- Do you think that you had to exist?

Jabba;
Assuming determinism, I did not have to, per se, but it was inevitable, if you take my meaning. Assuming chaos, no. It was just one of those things, not significant any more than how some sand ended up on my floor, from the Big Picture POV.
 
As much as possible, I need to reduce each of my responses to one sub-issue at a time.

Because that's how your shell game works. You forestall a discussion of your multiple points of failure because you've already admitted you can't fix them, and you admit you can't participate in a debate unless you lay down all sorts of rules for your opponents to follow. You're aiming for scripted drama, not a debate.

Good luck trying to convince everyone that your foibles are unintended after you so obviously try to gaslight the newcomer.

Do you think that you had to exist?

Pointing out that your argument assumes a chaotic universe does not transfer to others a burden to prove we live in a clockwork universe. It just points out that you're not really studying the problem -- you're just encoding your assumptions in mathematical language in order to hide them from casual critics.
 
Thermal,
- As much as possible, I need to reduce each of my responses to one sub-issue at a time.
- Do you think that you had to exist?


If someone is participating in this thread, or indeed if he is trying to prove immortality, he has to exist.
 
Jabba;
Assuming determinism, I did not have to, per se, but it was inevitable, if you take my meaning. Assuming chaos, no. It was just one of those things, not significant any more than how some sand ended up on my floor, from the Big Picture POV.
Thermal,
- I'm not sure that what I'm about to asks actually addresses what you just said, but I need to find out.
- What is the likelihood that the specific "contents" of the big bang would be such as to lead to your existence -- and specifically, that it would lead to your existence right "now"?
 
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Thermal,
- I'm not sure that what I'm about to asks actually addresses what you just said, but I need to find out.
- What is the likelihood that the specific "contents" of the big bang would be such as to lead to your existence -- and specifically, that it would lead to your existence right "now"?

Jabba:

The probability was one. It happened.
 
Thermal,
- I'm not sure that what I'm about to asks actually addresses what you just said, but I need to find out.
- What is the likelihood that the specific "contents" of the big bang would be such as to lead to your existence -- and specifically, that it would lead to your existence right "now"?

100 quadrillion to one. "Virtually zero". There. Are you happy now? Put it on your *********** map.
 
Thermal,
- As much as possible, I need to reduce each of my responses to one sub-issue at a time.
Then you will need to limit your numbered lists to just one item. Pick the one you think you can most easily defend. If you post walls of numbered lists, each item is fair game for discussion, whether you're capable of defending any of it or not.

- Do you think that you had to exist?
Do you think Mount Rainier had to exist?
 
Thermal,
- I'm not sure that what I'm about to asks actually addresses what you just said, but I need to find out.
- What is the likelihood that the specific "contents" of the big bang would be such as to lead to your existence -- and specifically, that it would lead to your existence right "now"?

After I exist, it's 1. How many people who don't exist can say the same?
 
- What is the likelihood that the specific "contents" of the big bang would be such as to lead to your existence -- and specifically, that it would lead to your existence right "now"?


How would that likelihood be different if you had an immortal soul in addition to your body?
 
I'm not sure that what I'm about to asks actually addresses what you just said, but I need to find out.

Because this is the same way you try to derail this same question whenever it comes up. People point out that you deal with only a slice of potential reality when it benefits you, but then try to invoke the multiverse -- and all its unknowables -- to deflect correction and try to put your critics on the spot.

What is the likelihood that the specific "contents" of the big bang would be such as to lead to your existence -- and specifically, that it would lead to your existence right "now"?

You need to try to understand Thermal's answer, because five years later you're still not understanding the most basic thing about how Bayesian inferences work. The most basic thing is that if you create a new space conditioned on some parameter, in order to examine the probabilistic behavior of some other parameter, the likelihood of the conditioned parameter in that new space must be 1. Your proof takes place within the space where you already exist. The likelihood that you exist in it is 1. When people say "it doesn't matter," that's not a philosophical or logical argument -- it's a statistical one. Literally it doesn't matter what Big Bang or singularity handwaving affects how the conditioned parameter might have arisen from a larger space.
 
If you post walls of numbered lists, each item is fair game for discussion, whether you're capable of defending any of it or not.

He already admitted he isn't, which makes all the quibbling over the Big Bang pure distraction. He knows he lost the debate, but I suppose he figures that it's still somehow a going concern if he can keep people posting in this thread. Jabba posts his wall-o-text numbered list of statements. He gets back a comprehensive rebuttal in response. But then the game changes because he knows he can't fix his argument at that basic level, so he insists we dive immediately into detail. And he insists on holding the tiller, so he can bounce from one low-level topic to another like a pinball, hoping his critics forget that there's a larger, simpler context in which he has already admitted defeat.
 
He already admitted he isn't, which makes all the quibbling over the Big Bang pure distraction. He knows he lost the debate, but I suppose he figures that it's still somehow a going concern if he can keep people posting in this thread. Jabba posts his wall-o-text numbered list of statements. He gets back a comprehensive rebuttal in response. But then the game changes because he knows he can't fix his argument at that basic level, so he insists we dive immediately into detail. And he insists on holding the tiller, so he can bounce from one low-level topic to another like a pinball, hoping his critics forget that there's a larger, simpler context in which he has already admitted defeat.

I didn't want him to think that his hypocrisy went unnoticed. It's another dimension of his innate dishonesty.
 
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