Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[Axxman300]

A straight line from a high-powered round entering next to the EOP would have exited the face or the right temple. Tom Robinson of Gawler's funeral home said he saw a small hole in the right temple he thought was an exit from a fragment, but there's no fragment trail on the X-ray to make it the official story.

Let's go the the film again:

And that a big lie. Only one bullet exits JFK's skull, and it was a 6.5x52mm round fired by Oswald.

Should be pointed out that another high-powered round wouldn't have left a small hole, it would have further blown away the skull.

Bottom Line" Tom Robinson is wrong.

 

[Axxman300]

You see, what I said goes double for a damaged skull. Since the area around the large skull defect was so fractures, surrounding bone fragments would just come loose. So Dr. Finck could not have arrived late to the autopsy, after the brain had been removed, to examine a beveled entrance wound which couldn't have even existed. Again, Dr. Finck always insisted that the small skull wound was intact within the open cranium, and was not only visible when previously-separated skull fragments were placed back.

Again, no mystery. Finck saw what he saw. Humes used a saw to cut the skull cap off, using caution to remove the fragmented skull pieces.

Why you do not accept this is beyond rational thinking.

 

[BStrong]

So you're arguing a 4th shot, and since only three cartridge cases were found in Oswald's sniper's nest, a 4th shot means a second shooter.

OK, lets assume for a moment that there was a 4th shot. There is no reason in the world why that means there has to be a second shooter. A 4th shot could easily have been fired by Oswald. The number of bullets remaining in a magazine cannot tell you how many shots were fired, even if you know it was full to start with.

So then, where is the 4th cartridge case?

I am a regular shooter at my local range, and I shoot one or both of two rifles that I own...a Remington 700, .270 centrefire bolt-action hunting rifle and a Savage M12 chambered .243 Win. While shooting, I sometimes get hit by a cartridge case bouncing off a wall or an upright at the front of the range and come back at me, and occasionally, I have found a cartridge case lodged in my clothing at the end of my shoot. They usually fall out when I stand up but on at least a few occasions, they have remained in my clothing, and I have either found them on the driver's seat after I got home, or they have fallen out when I went to change clothes in the house.

There is no reason that, if in the unlikely event of Oswald actually firing a 4th shot, that something similar could not have happened to him. The cartridge case lodges in his clothing, and he unknowingly carries it out of the building, where it becomes dislodged either elsewhere in the building and is never found, or out in the street where it is never found (perhaps ends up in a drain).

It's even worse with automatic weapons.

I once had the singularly unpleasant experience of being far enough away to the ejection side of an HK 21 LMG that the hot brass rained all over me.

After the first belt (50 rounds) the ejected brass that hit exposed skin instantly caused burns. I've got a bunch of little burn scars on my arms to this day, 30+ years after the fact.

 

[MicahJava]

Ah, the "just..no" gambit; last resort of those who don't have an answer.

Explain to me why this could not have happened, given that I have multiple personal experiences with this happening to me. There are enough gun enthusiasts on this forum that I'll bet at least some of them have had the same experience.

Okay, let's spend some time in fantasy land. If Oswald struck Kennedy in the head two times, then what happened to the round that entered the EOP and why did it not leave any bullet fragments except maybe a tiny one in the upper neck?

 

[MicahJava]

Let's go the the film again:

[qimg]https://media.giphy.com/media/10kWDRGNgMf0hq/giphy.gif[/qimg]

And that a big lie. Only one bullet exits JFK's skull, and it was a 6.5x52mm round fired by Oswald.

Should be pointed out that another high-powered round wouldn't have left a small hole, it would have further blown away the skull.

Bottom Line" Tom Robinson is wrong.

Axxman300, gunshot wounds don't always look like Hollywood movies. A round could have entered Kennedy's head before that gif starts.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Okay, let's spend some time in fantasy land. If Oswald struck Kennedy in the head two times, then what happened to the round that entered the EOP and why did it not leave any bullet fragments except maybe a tiny one in the upper neck?

Well, seeing as you have failed to identify a wound to the EOP, and there was only one outliar opinion of a fragment in the neck, that did not reach the conclusion of the autopsy, I’m going to say “nothing because it didn’t exist”.

A bullet entered some distance above the EOP, where we have evidence for it, and caused a massive exit wound well recorded in evidence.

If YOU are suggesting a fourth shot, YOU explain the lack of evidence for it.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Axxman300, gunshot wounds don't always look like Hollywood movies. A round could have entered Kennedy's head before that gif starts.

Without leaving any evidence visible in the autopsy record?

 

[Axxman300]

Axxman300, gunshot wounds don't always look like Hollywood movies. A round could have entered Kennedy's head before that gif starts.

You said a second high powered rifle.

What you see in the footage is what happens when a high powered round strikes the skull from short range (100 yards). You can't tell what a GSW to the head looks like because I've posted the video showing what it looked like in this case.

There is only on bullet to the head. Period.

 

[Axxman300]

Okay, let's spend some time in fantasy land. If Oswald struck Kennedy in the head two times, then what happened to the round that entered the EOP and why did it not leave any bullet fragments except maybe a tiny one in the upper neck?

Only hit him once in the head.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't know why am bothering doing this, but... oh, what the hell...

1. The ammunition Oswald used was of a type known as full metal jacket .. this will be important later so don't forget it.

2. Oswald fired THREE and only THREE shots. When looking at all the ear-witness testimony from all over Dealey Plaza from people who claim to have heard anywhere between one and nine shots, the most credence MUST be given to those who were closest the the sniper's lair. Dealey Plaza is an echo chamber (as I have already explained earlier) and ear-witnesses further away are sure to have either missed shots or heard echoes. There were three TSBD workers directly below Oswald's snipers nest. They were grilled intensively by the FBI and could not be shaken. They were 100% unanimous and 100% certain that they heard three and only three shots ring out.

3. The first shot Oswald fired missed. We don't know for sure why it missed, but the most plausible theory is that it struck a traffic light (on the corner of Elm and Houston) that was in a direct line of sight between Oswald and JFK's Presidential Limo. Most likely, this bullet fragmented; full metal jacket bullets are designed to do exactly this when they strike something hard, like a steel pipe. Evidence for this is the witnesses (Virgie Rachley) who saw sparks fly off the ground behind the Limo, and the testimony of James Tague was hit in the cheek by a piece of concrete curb that was sent flying by a lead fragment from where Rachley said he saw the sparks.

4. Oswald then moved his firing point before firing his next two shots as the Limo travelled on up Elm. The evidence for this is the position of the spent brass... one on its own, and two together after Oswald moved.

5.The second shot hit JFK in the back of the shoulder base of the neck, exited his throat. It then began to tumble and was sideways when it hit JC in the back, went through him and exited just below his right nipple, then continued on to smash through his right wrist and lodge in his right thigh. This bullet remained intact; full metal jacket bullets are designed to do exactly this when they strike something soft like tissue, small bones or cartilage. Additionally, this bullet was ballistically linked to being fired from Oswald’s Mannlicher Carcano "to the exclusion of all other firearms".

6. The third shot entered the back of JFK's head and blew his brains out. This bullet fragmented into many pieces; full metal jacket bullets are designed to do exactly this when they strike something hard like the bone of a human skull. Less than half the material of this round was recovered, nonetheless, it was also ballistically linked to being fired from Oswald’s Mannlicher Carcano "to the exclusion of all other firearms".

The ballistics, physics and timeline of Oswald's three shots is well settled. There was no second shooter, and Oswald did not fire a 4th shot. This EOP wound you keep harping on about is a fantasy.. it doesn't exist... JFK was hit once in the neck and once in the head... the neck shot would probably have been survivable, the head shot wasn't.

 

[BStrong]

Axxman300, gunshot wounds don't always look like Hollywood movies. A round could have entered Kennedy's head before that gif starts.

If you've got a couple of extra seconds, could you tell me what you know about GSW's from high powered rifle projectiles?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

A round could have entered Kennedy's head before that gif starts.

Or not.
Do you know what would allow us to determine which of these possibilities is true?

Evidence.

An enormous amount of evidence has been posted here. It is detailed, it is factual, it is objective, and all of it is in opposition to your scenario.

You, on the other hand, have yet to even attempt an explanation, never mind produce any evidence to support it.
You could remedy this by detailing your theory of

1. Where the shot was fired from.
2. When it was fired.
3. What specific type of gun was used.
4. What happened to the bullet.
5. Who fired the shot.

Then you could post the evidence you have for this.

You must have evidence, of course. It would be foolish to believe in something for which you have no evidence.
Right, MicahJava?

 

[RoboTimbo]

Okay, let's spend some time in fantasy land. If Oswald struck Kennedy in the head two times, then what happened to the round that entered the EOP and why did it not leave any bullet fragments except maybe a tiny one in the upper neck?

It's your fantasy, you explain it.

 

[HSienzant]

Why do I theorize more than three shots if most of the witnesses only heard three loud shots?

So you're arguing a 4th shot, and since only three cartridge cases were found in Oswald's sniper's nest, a 4th shot means a second shooter.

OK, lets assume for a moment that there was a 4th shot. There is no reason in the world why that means there has to be a second shooter. A 4th shot could easily have been fired by Oswald. The number of bullets remaining in a magazine cannot tell you how many shots were fired, even if you know it was full to start with.

So then, where is the 4th cartridge case?

I am a regular shooter at my local range, and I shoot one or both of two rifles that I own...a Remington 700, .270 centrefire bolt-action hunting rifle and a Savage M12 chambered .243 Win. While shooting, I sometimes get hit by a cartridge case bouncing off a wall or an upright at the front of the range and come back at me, and occasionally, I have found a cartridge case lodged in my clothing at the end of my shoot. They usually fall out when I stand up but on at least a few occasions, they have remained in my clothing, and I have either found them on the driver's seat after I got home, or they have fallen out when I went to change clothes in the house.

There is no reason that, if in the unlikely event of Oswald actually firing a 4th shot, that something similar could not have happened to him. The cartridge case lodges in his clothing, and he unknowingly carries it out of the building, where it becomes dislodged either elsewhere in the building and is never found, or out in the street where it is never found (perhaps ends up in a drain).

Just... no.

So no fourth shot from anywhere? Or just no fourth shot from Oswald's weapon?

If you're arguing for a fourth shot, and no fourth shell was found anywhere in Dealey Plaza within hours of the assassination, on what basis are you eliminating the only known weapon found in Dealey Plaza that day from firing it?

Note: Your need to have a second assassin is NOT an adequate reason.

Okay, let's spend some time in fantasy land. If Oswald struck Kennedy in the head two times, then what happened to the round that entered the EOP and why did it not leave any bullet fragments except maybe a tiny one in the upper neck?

Your fantasy, not ours.

You suggested there was a fourth shot. It was then suggested the fourth shot could have come from the only known weapon in Dealey Plaza, and the fourth shell lost. You denied that as an explanation for some unexplained reason. It was also pointed out that explanation seems far more reasonable than conjecturing an unseen assassin firing an unseen weapon leaving behind no trace of himself, his weapon, or his bullets.

Nobody suggested the fourth shot hit JFK in the head. Until now. When you just did.

Now you're asking us to explain your fantasy theory which you've offered no evidence of, and simply rejected an alternative explanation with no explanation from you as to why you reject it.

Just another attempt to shift the burden of proof.

We're asking you why you fantasize a fourth shot when the vast majority of the witnesses said they heard only three.
We're asking you why you fantasize a second shot to the head (and three shots to strike JFK overall) when the medical experts who examined the body or the extant autopsy materials found no evidence of more than two bullet strikes (one in the upper body, and one in the head).

You have yet to explain your theory nor offer any evidence of it.

Here's where we left off before you shifted into fantasy mode:

If you want to explain away unheard shots by unseen assassins firing unseen weapons that caused unseen damage, well, wouldn't it be simpler to just explain away these unheard shots by saying they weren't fired?

If you want to argue for actual shots, then you need some evidence, not just conjecture and speculation and logical fallacies.
1. Let's see the link to this supposed "CIA manual on assassination".
2. Let's see the eyewitness testimony for other assassins.
3. Let's see the other bullets that were fired.
4. Let's see the evidence for the CIA's involvement in the assassination.
5. Let's see the evidence for suppressed shots (hint: It's not "well, nobody heard them, so ergo, they must have been suppressed!").
6. Show the damage to JFK in the autopsy evidence and from the autopsy report and the HSCA forensic panel report of what these bullets struck, if anything. Or to Connally in Connally's Parkland medical records.
7. Wouldn't it be simpler to just explain away these unheard shots by unseen assassins firing unseen weapons that caused unseen damage by saying there weren't any?

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

You said a second high powered rifle.

What you see in the footage is what happens when a high powered round strikes the skull from short range (100 yards). You can't tell what a GSW to the head looks like because I've posted the video showing what it looked like in this case.

There is only on bullet to the head. Period.

It's almost as if there was a high-powered weapon and another weapon which had some effort to supress the noise.

 

[HSienzant]

It's almost as if there was a high-powered weapon and another weapon which had some effort to supress the noise.

Almost - but not quite.

A suppressed weapon - which explains why no witnesses heard the noise!

And suppressed assassin(s) - which explains why no one saw the other shooter(s)!

And suppressed rifle(s) - which explains why no one found a rifle anywhere but the Depository!

And suppressed bullet(s) - which explains why no one found a second wound to the head at autopsy!

Or maybe - just maybe - there was no other shooters, no other weapons, no other bullets, and no other damage to the head other than that found. That would explain the evidence at least as well as your fantasy of unseen assassins shooting unheard rifles with unseen rifles that caused unseen damage.

You desire to establish a second shooter exceeds your grasp of the evidence, or your understanding of what evidence is, and is not.

I can see MicahJava's response now:

Just... no.

Hilarious!

You have Just ... no credibility left, MicahJava. You've blown it all.

Hank

 

[smartcooky]

It's almost as if there was a high-powered weapon

There was.... it was used by Oswald, who fired three shots from it and left it on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that conspiracy theorists will go to in order to keep their conspiracy alive

- the dismissal of the testimony of credible witnesses in favour of the testimony of less credible ones.

- the fabrication of new "evidence" out of whole cloth.

- the hand-waving away of known facts that don't fit the conspiracy

Anything..... ANYTHING but accept that the simplest and most logical explanation is most likely the correct one.

FACT: we know that Oswald fired three shots... we have the evidence for that. There is no evidence of a 4th or subsequent shots being fired by Oswald or anyone else

FACT: we know that JFK was hit twice, once in the neck and once in the head. There is no physical evidence of him having been hit more that twice.

Once you are forced to hypothesise whole new technologies to keep your conspiracy possible, you have stepped over into the realm of magic, requiring of you a deep and abiding faith in things you can never know.
- S. G. Collins

 

[RoboTimbo]

It's almost as if there was a high-powered weapon and another weapon which had some effort to supress the noise.

It's almost as if you'll need evidence for a suppressed weapon. Your fantasy land isn't evidence.

 

[Axxman300]

It's almost as if there was a high-powered weapon and another weapon which had some effort to supress the noise.

And there wasn't one.

I know you won't read this because you can't read, and it's written by a combat vet, but for the grownups in the room it's nice, short breakdown of how suppressors do and do not work:

http://www.wearethemighty.com/gear-tech/this-is-why-silencers-dont-really-exist-suppressors-do

The key to this article is that your defense is that not all gunshot wounds are like they are in Hollywood movies, and here the author strikes down the Hollywood version of a silencer.

*The comments section is full of b#tt hurt*

Worse, you have now put the CIA's "Assassination Manual" on the table, and they argue against using guns of any kind if you want to be successful. Guess what, you just proved that Oswald didn't have any CIA training.

Ouch.

 

[MicahJava]

I don't know why am bothering doing this, but... oh, what the hell...

1. The ammunition Oswald used was of a type known as full metal jacket .. this will be important later so don't forget it.

2. Oswald fired THREE and only THREE shots. When looking at all the ear-witness testimony from all over Dealey Plaza from people who claim to have heard anywhere between one and nine shots, the most credence MUST be given to those who were closest the the sniper's lair. Dealey Plaza is an echo chamber (as I have already explained earlier) and ear-witnesses further away are sure to have either missed shots or heard echoes. There were three TSBD workers directly below Oswald's snipers nest. They were grilled intensively by the FBI and could not be shaken. They were 100% unanimous and 100% certain that they heard three and only three shots ring out.

3. The first shot Oswald fired missed. We don't know for sure why it missed, but the most plausible theory is that it struck a traffic light (on the corner of Elm and Houston) that was in a direct line of sight between Oswald and JFK's Presidential Limo. Most likely, this bullet fragmented; full metal jacket bullets are designed to do exactly this when they strike something hard, like a steel pipe. Evidence for this is the witnesses (Virgie Rachley) who saw sparks fly off the ground behind the Limo, and the testimony of James Tague was hit in the cheek by a piece of concrete curb that was sent flying by a lead fragment from where Rachley said he saw the sparks.

4. Oswald then moved his firing point before firing his next two shots as the Limo travelled on up Elm. The evidence for this is the position of the spent brass... one on its own, and two together after Oswald moved.

5.The second shot hit JFK in the back of the shoulder base of the neck, exited his throat. It then began to tumble and was sideways when it hit JC in the back, went through him and exited just below his right nipple, then continued on to smash through his right wrist and lodge in his right thigh. This bullet remained intact; full metal jacket bullets are designed to do exactly this when they strike something soft like tissue, small bones or cartilage. Additionally, this bullet was ballistically linked to being fired from Oswald’s Mannlicher Carcano "to the exclusion of all other firearms".

6. The third shot entered the back of JFK's head and blew his brains out. This bullet fragmented into many pieces; full metal jacket bullets are designed to do exactly this when they strike something hard like the bone of a human skull. Less than half the material of this round was recovered, nonetheless, it was also ballistically linked to being fired from Oswald’s Mannlicher Carcano "to the exclusion of all other firearms".

The ballistics, physics and timeline of Oswald's three shots is well settled. There was no second shooter, and Oswald did not fire a 4th shot. This EOP wound you keep harping on about is a fantasy.. it doesn't exist... JFK was hit once in the neck and once in the head... the neck shot would probably have been survivable, the head shot wasn't.

I like how Connally's back wound was no more oval than Kennedy's small head wound.

https://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/BigLieSmallWound.htm