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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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Umm... you're free to ask a question if it's coherent and relevant?

note: *coherent* referring to have some grasp of the JFK case, not being able to spell every word correctly.

You never answer questions. You either deflect, change the subject, or repeat your original, without-merit-claim.

We have demonstrated that your sources are wrong, that the research (from exclusively CT sources) is at best faulty. Why not read the Warren Commission all the way through? Why not dive into the National Archives and read the real-time memos and communiques and white-papers?

If you did you could come at us with a substantiated position. The JFK Assassination CT's are all lies - every one of them. Some people need it to be a conspiracy to explain Vietnam, or the shift to the right in 1968 under Nixon, or whatever perceived ills the nation has suffered because JFK would have saved the day. JFK was an inspiring leader, gifted speaker, and saved the world during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but on paper he didn't accomplish much.

Lifton and the other authors you cite all admit that their work was driven by disbelief that a single man could kill JFK. In the 1960's and 1970's it was not hard to think that way, but in 2018 after so many mass shootings it is clear that one man with a gun can do a lot of damage with only basic planning, and luck.
 
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Actually, I'm not responding to links of links of links to this same thread with the false inference that any of my ideas I've spent a long time on have been refuted. When I have something to share and someone pretends to not understand or remember it, usually I'll try reposing whatever direct evidence I shared.
Umm... you're free to ask a question if it's coherent and relevant?

note: *coherent* referring to have some grasp of the JFK case, not being able to spell every word correctly.

Bold-faced is the part where you BEG THE QUESTION.

You can start with the answer to the questions within this post from LAST MARCH, then:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11760443&postcount=2536

Or just post the link to where you already answered it.

PREDICTION: You will do neither. You will ignore the point & change the subject to something else.

Hank
 
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Unfortunately the length of time one spends on a pet theory, like trying to move the wound locations to suit it, only ever allows you to convince yourself, and makes pride the main reason to discount what, to the rest of the world, is blindingly obvious.

If a CT advocate actually wanted to put the criticism to bed, they would not dance around or ignore the posts where the sceptics are laying out, piece by piece, the answers they would need to hear to be convinced.
 
I notice you have been studiously avoiding my question about plotting the trajectory of the supposed extra bullet you posit.
This would constitute actual evidence. You could show where you think the second shooter was. Why not do some actual work on this, instead of citing sources you clearly haven't read, and show us your theory, complete with real evidence?

Can you point out where in this post you cite the evidence for a second head wound, given that the autopsy concludes there was only one?

You are still ignoring my question about plotting the trajectory of this supposed second bullet.
Can you state for the record exactly when, i.e. in which frame of the Zapruder film, you think this shot was fired?
Is there a reason you are so reluctant to fix a position for a second shooter?

Umm... you're free to ask a question if it's coherent and relevant?

note: *coherent* referring to have some grasp of the JFK case, not being able to spell every word correctly.

Shameless.

Completely and utterly shameless. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, wait.
MJ never said he'd actually answer any of the questions. He's just assuming the right to allow me to ask, even though it isn't his right to bestow, being as it is part of the MA and a fundamental human right.
Would I be wrong to describe this as childish, shameless and hubristic, or is there a kinder interpretation I have missed?
 
You never answer questions. You either deflect, change the subject, or repeat your original, without-merit-claim.

We have demonstrated that your sources are wrong, that the research (from exclusively CT sources) is at best faulty. Why not read the Warren Commission all the way through? Why not dive into the National Archives and read the real-time memos and communiques and white-papers?

If you did you could come at us with a substantiated position. The JFK Assassination CT's are all lies - every one of them. Some people need it to be a conspiracy to explain Vietnam, or the shift to the right in 1968 under Nixon, or whatever perceived ills the nation has suffered because JFK would have saved the day. JFK was an inspiring leader, gifted speaker, and saved the world during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but on paper he didn't accomplish much.

Lifton and the other authors you cite all admit that their work was driven by disbelief that a single man could kill JFK. In the 1960's and 1970's it was not hard to think that way, but in 2018 after so many mass shootings it is clear that one man with a gun can do a lot of damage with only basic planning, and luck.

Although it is of course impossible to know what JFK would have done had he lived, I've always had a hard time buying the notion that he would have avoided the Vietnam trap. He was very anti-communist, and most of the cabinet (including McNamara at Defense) when LBJ escalated were holdovers from JFK. I really don't think the course of the Vietnam war would have been a lot different had JFK been president. We were already well down the road to the Vietnam war before his assassination.
 
Umm... you're free to ask a question if it's coherent and relevant?

note: *coherent* referring to have some grasp of the JFK case, not being able to spell every word correctly.
Why did you note coherent to this and not relevant? Relevance refers to being on topic, coherence refers to an idea being rational.
 
Although it is of course impossible to know what JFK would have done had he lived, I've always had a hard time buying the notion that he would have avoided the Vietnam trap. He was very anti-communist, and most of the cabinet (including McNamara at Defense) when LBJ escalated were holdovers from JFK. I really don't think the course of the Vietnam war would have been a lot different had JFK been president. We were already well down the road to the Vietnam war before his assassination.

Yes.

JFK's defense strategy relied on what he called "Flexible Response" which required a huge military. Eisenhower before him believed in "Targeted Response" which involved threatening nuclear force. The problem with a huge military is the temptation to use it.

I agree that Vietnam would have gone much differently under JFK. LBJ micromanaged the war. JFK loved his Special Forces, and would have heeded their advice. I'm not saying we would have won, but maybe we find a way to end it better in late 1968. Who knows?
 
Bold-faced is the part where you BEG THE QUESTION.

You can start with the answer to the questions within this post from LAST MARCH, then:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11760443&postcount=2536

Or just post the link to where you already answered it.

PREDICTION: You will do neither. You will ignore the point & change the subject to something else.

Hank

Why do I theorize more than three shots if most of the witnesses only heard three loud shots? Noise suppressors probably. The CIA manual on assassination mentions using suppressors, and that was written a decade before.

The DIRECT evidence for noise suppressors is John Connally.

And he provided some of the best evidence against the Single Bullet Theory:

A. I think it's pretty clear, judging by the dozens of Dealey Plaza witness statements, that the first loud shot was at 190-224. I think there's very little in the way of evidence for a loud shout occurring before that. Rosemary Willis and Conally turning their heads before that is kind of weak evidence compared to the totality of it all.

B. Connally always swore that he was struck very shortly after the first loud shot, and that he did not hear this shot. He always said that he remembered only two loud shots, but he thinks the second shot was the head shot, and by the totality of the evidence it appears that the last two loud shots were bunched together almost like you could mistake it for just one.
 
Why do I theorize more than three shots if most of the witnesses only heard three loud shots? Noise suppressors probably. The CIA manual on assassination mentions using suppressors, and that was written a decade before.

The DIRECT evidence for noise suppressors is John Connally.

And he provided some of the best evidence against the Single Bullet Theory:

A. I think it's pretty clear, judging by the dozens of Dealey Plaza witness statements, that the first loud shot was at 190-224. I think there's very little in the way of evidence for a loud shout occurring before that. Rosemary Willis and Conally turning their heads before that is kind of weak evidence compared to the totality of it all.

B. Connally always swore that he was struck very shortly after the first loud shot, and that he did not hear this shot. He always said that he remembered only two loud shots, but he thinks the second shot was the head shot, and by the totality of the evidence it appears that the last two loud shots were bunched together almost like you could mistake it for just one.


And I'm still going to run away from answering anything along with a heaping helping of FRINGE RESET!

FTFY

Answer the outstanding questions, MicahJava.
 
I was wrong. I suggested you would change the subject. Instead, you opted for speculation, bald assertions with no evidence, misdirection, conjecture, and a large heaping of outright falsehood instead, in an attempt to salvage just a portion of your position from March of 2017.

Why do I theorize more than three shots if most of the witnesses only heard three loud shots?

You are rephrasing my question. Don't. I asked this: "So the 90% of the witnesses who said three shots were all mistaken and couldn't count to four? And the witnesses who testified to only two shots (which were more than those who testified to four or more), also were mistaken? Only the four or five witnesses who said four or more shots were on the ball that day, and everyone else was mistaken? If you're going to argue with the vast majority of the witnesses perception of something as simple as the number of shots given within days of the assassination, please don't quote eyewitness recollections from decades after the fact and try to sell us on how they couldn't be mistaken."



Noise suppressors probably.

That doesn't even answer the question you just asked, let alone the ones I did. You asked, "Why do I theorize more than three shots if most of the witnesses only heard three loud shots?"

A valid answer would be "because of the evidence of four shots, like: {followed by your list of the evidence of four shots}". But you don't have any evidence of suppressed shots, so you're just arguing in a circle.



The CIA manual on assassination mentions using suppressors, and that was written a decade before.

Asked and answered almost a year ago. You're just taking us on another ride through your spin cycle on that conspiracy carousel once more.

If you want to explain away unheard shots by unseen assassins firing unseen weapons that caused unseen damage, well, wouldn't it be simpler to just explain away these unheard shots by saying they weren't fired?

If you want to argue for actual shots, then you need some evidence, not just conjecture and speculation and logical fallacies.
1. Let's see the link to this supposed "CIA manual on assassination".
2. Let's see the eyewitness testimony for other assassins.
3. Let's see the other bullets that were fired.
4. Let's see the evidence for the CIA's involvement in the assassination.
5. Let's see the evidence for suppressed shots (hint: It's not "well, nobody heard them, so ergo, they must have been suppressed!").
6. Show the damage to JFK in the autopsy evidence and from the autopsy report and the HSCA forensic panel report of what these bullets struck, if anything. Or to Connally in Connally's Parkland medical records.
7. Wouldn't it be simpler to just explain away these unheard shots by unseen assassins firing unseen weapons that caused unseen damage by saying there weren't any?



The DIRECT evidence for noise suppressors is John Connally.

No, he's not. He said he heard two shots, spaced about ten to twelve seconds apart. He also said he was struck by a shot between those two he heard (which he didn't hear, because of the damage it caused). So Connally testified to three shots only. He appears to react to a shot at Z224. And JFK's head was blown apart at Z313, and Connally testified he was pelted by blood and brains from the third shot. There is an average of five to six seconds between shots according to Connally. From Z224 to Z313 is about 4.9 seconds between those two shots (the camera ran at 18.3 frames per second). That means Z224 is the second of the three shots Connally heard, and there is one missing one earlier than that. Probably somewhere about Z135 if we allow five seconds from the first to the second shot.



And he provided some of the best evidence against the Single Bullet Theory:

No, he didn't. His testimony as cited above fits very well with a first shot miss, the second shot hitting both men, and the third shot hitting JFK in the head.



A. I think it's pretty clear, judging by the dozens of Dealey Plaza witness statements, that the first loud shot was at 190-224.

Connally said the second shot was the one that hit him. You just said Connally was a great witness for you, but he's already contradicting you. When do you think Connally was struck, anyway?



I think there's very little in the way of evidence for a loud shout occurring before that. Rosemary Willis and Conally turning their heads before that is kind of weak evidence compared to the totality of it all.

Connally's testimony is that he was struck by the second shot. When was this second shot, if the first one was in Z190-224 range?



B. Connally always swore that he was struck very shortly after the first loud shot, and that he did not hear this shot.

No. I asked you to document this 'very shortly' previously, and you couldn't.
When do you think Connally was shot? When do you think the first shot was?



He always said that he remembered only two loud shots, but he thinks the second shot was the head shot

False. He said the second shot he heard was the head shot, but it was the third shot in total.



... and by the totality of the evidence it appears that the last two loud shots were bunched together almost like you could mistake it for just one.

No, I went through this in detail with Robert Harris before you got here. Read the prior threads and see the evidence for a head shot and the sound of the impact of the head shot as the close-together two loud reports heard by many witnesses. Bob pretended not to understand the point. You can take that approach as well.

And now, after citing Connally's ability to recall the exact sequence (which you butcher and get wrong), you then claim Connally wasn't a good witness and didn't hear all the shots, and mistook two separate shots for one. You claimed above he was "The DIRECT evidence for noise suppressors". Now you're trying to tell us he was not a good witness. It can't be both. Which is it?

Your attempt to answer the original questions fails, because it just raises more question you can't answer.

You're funny. Unintentionally funny, perhaps, but funny nonetheless.

Here's your problem: You're mistaking confirmation bias for a massive amount of evidence for your opinion. It's not. It never will be.

Unheard shots that hit nothing from unseen assassins firing unseen weapons that leave behind no trace of the assassin, rifle, bullets, or shells is NOT evidence of suppressed weapons. It's evidence of NO weapons. You're somehow confusing those two. The distinction is quite important.

Hank
 
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Shouldn’t direct evidence of a suppressor be evidence that directly indicates a suppressor rather than a vague assumption of what somebody would or would not have heard.

From the same interpretation of the same testimony Incould as easily claim it is direct evidence that Connelly does not have perfect hearing, or that a bullet travelling faster than sound will hit before it is heard.

At very best this is “the evidence that has closest association to an indirect conclusion “, and not direct evidence. At best... which is stretching the benefit of the doubt beyond breaking point given there is no physical evidence at all for a bullet, in a calibre compatible with a suppressor, striking anybody, or anything, at subsonic speed, and no viable location for such a weapon identified within a usable range.
 
Multiple Shots
It you wanted to stage a concert in Dealey Plaza, it would be a sound engineer's nightmare. Its surrounded by hard flat surfaces (like buildings which will reflect sounds), and contains rounded surfaces (like the Grassy Knoll which will deflect and dissipate sounds) and soft objects (like trees which will absorb or deaden sounds). I'll bet I could distribute a couple of hundred people in and around the area of Dealey Plaza and then fire a single shot from the 6th floor of the TSBD and when I gathered reports from those people, they would vary between those who heard three or four shots from echos off the buildings, down to people who did not hear any shots at all. Its gets worse when more that one shot is fired.

Single Bullet Theory
This theory, as described by the Warren Commission, was completely debunked in the documentary "JFK:Lost Bullet". Analysis of the relative positions of JFK and Governor Connally, taking into account the fact that the back seats of the limo were set higher than the front seats and that the two men were turned slightly have removed the need for the bullet to perform aerobatics. There was no "magic" needed; the bullet just travelled straight on through.

SBT.gif
 
Why do I theorize more than three shots if most of the witnesses only heard three loud shots? Noise suppressors probably. The CIA manual on assassination mentions using suppressors, and that was written a decade before.

The DIRECT evidence for noise suppressors is John Connally.

And he provided some of the best evidence against the Single Bullet Theory:

A. I think it's pretty clear, judging by the dozens of Dealey Plaza witness statements, that the first loud shot was at 190-224. I think there's very little in the way of evidence for a loud shout occurring before that. Rosemary Willis and Conally turning their heads before that is kind of weak evidence compared to the totality of it all.

B. Connally always swore that he was struck very shortly after the first loud shot, and that he did not hear this shot. He always said that he remembered only two loud shots, but he thinks the second shot was the head shot, and by the totality of the evidence it appears that the last two loud shots were bunched together almost like you could mistake it for just one.

Wrong.

Connally is nothing more or less than a witness whose account of the event can be crowbarred into CTist fantasies.
 
Single Bullet Theory
This theory, as described by the Warren Commission Conspiracy Theorists, was completely debunked in the documentary "JFK:Lost Bullet". Analysis of the relative positions of JFK and Governor Connally, taking into account the fact that the back seats of the limo were set higher than the front seats and that the two men were turned slightly have removed the need for the bullet to perform aerobatics. There was no "magic" needed; the bullet just travelled straight on through.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/ad8w0ljg0ozb30w/SBT.gif?raw=1[/qimg]

Fixed that for you.

The Warren Commission got it right. Conspiracy theorists misstate the relative positions of the two men, pretend the bullet paused in mid-air, pretend it made a right hand turn, then a left, all in an attempt to sell an unknowing public on the argument that the Warren Commissioners were a pack of fools.

They weren't.

Hank
 
Fixed that for you.

The Warren Commission got it right. Conspiracy theorists misstate the relative positions of the two men, pretend the bullet paused in mid-air, pretend it made a right hand turn, then a left, all in an attempt to sell an unknowing public on the argument that the Warren Commissioners were a pack of fools.

They weren't.

Hank

Ok, fair enough.

It still stands that whoever came up with the idea that CE399 performed some fancy aerobatics rather simply going more or less in a straight line, was talking a load of horse's cock. The only aerobatics it is likely to have performed was to tumble, which accounts for its relatively pristine appearance when viewed from certain side-on angles, while having clearly been flattened slightly at the back.
 
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Fixed that for you.

The Warren Commission got it right. Conspiracy theorists misstate the relative positions of the two men, pretend the bullet paused in mid-air, pretend it made a right hand turn, then a left, all in an attempt to sell an unknowing public on the argument that the Warren Commissioners were a pack of fools.

They weren't.

Hank

As soon has someone mouths the "magic bullet" crap I know they are either ignorant or are dogmatically wedded to conspiracy woo. It is a total canard, because there was no "magic bullet" period.

The movie JFK has Costner, playing Garrison, mouth the "magic bullet" crap to the jury in his abuse of prosecution of Clay Shaw. The result is that large numbers of people not just Conspiracy wackaloons believe the "magic bullet" nonsense.

This is one historical lie that needs to die.
 
It's not a manual, it's called "A Study in Assassinations":

https://archive.org/details/CIAAStudyOfAssassination1953

On page 9 they discuss the best options for killing the target, and advise against specialized weapons, and instead recommend whatever's lying around.

On page 11 they caution against using a firearm because they have a lousy track record...BUT...if you gotta use one, use a bolt-action rifle.

Page 14 covers "Silent Weapons". Guess what, they don't recommend them. They say that pistols, submachine guns, and improvised carbines can be silenced thanks to their ability to fire subsonic rounds, but range for the carbine is 100 yards on a good day, and pistols have to be "an arms length away" from the target.

The section ends with these words of wisdom:

A telescopically sighted, closed action carbine shooting a low velocity bullet of great weight, and built for accuracy, could be very useful to an assassin in certain situations. At this time of writing, NO SUCH WEAPON EXISTS.

A manual would have a lot of "How To", like the US Army Ranger Manual, which covers everything infantry related, but this is just an overview on assassinations because in the end a real assassin is going to do the job based on where he is, and what he has at his disposal during his window of opportunity. In Oswald's case, it was an actual window, and the only rifle he could afford. Fate did the rest.


Man, that's is some cracker-jack research by MJ. Yet again you've cited a source that disagrees with your theory, and even better, it's from the CIA.
 
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