Proof of Immortality, VII

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He's even gone so far as to virtually admit that he's doing that...

Yup. When people asked him why his description of E, the observation of self-awareness, had so many irrelevant aspects that seem to refer to a soul, they asked him point-blank why he didn't just say "soul." His answer was that he didn't want to come right out and say "soul" because he was afraid people could see he was begging the question. So most of what he's doing now is a series of word games designed to hide the fact that he needs self-awareness described by E to include purports of attributes that would be provided by a soul, and his attempts to foist dualism onto H, the materialist hypothesis.

It seems that, rather than trying to disprove materialism, he now thinks he's trying to disprove "one of the non-religious hypotheses about mortality," and for some reason still thinks that disproving one hypothesis about mortality that he's made up himself will somehow disprove mortality.

Yes, as I discuss in connection with Fatal Flaws 5 and 6, Jabba equivocates his variables to hide the false dilemma. Some days, one variable is the singular hypothesis and its noted complement is "everything else." Other days what his notation identifies as the complement is a singular hypothesis. Jabba's argument requires a bona fide dilemma because it's a process-of-elimination argument. He can't compute directly the probability of immortality, so he has to argue it's computed by subtracting from 1 the probability of everything else.

But both "immortality" and "everything else" comprise sets of potentially disparate hypotheses, which Jabba can't deal with mathematically. He just doesn't have the chops, or the data. So his dilemma is contrived, and subsequently invalid. "Everything else" reduces to materialism in his argument, and he used to play a shell game between P(H) and P(~H) as to which can be considered singular and well-formed. He simply doesn't have a formulation for P(immortality) that directly proves it to be a number very nearly 1, so he relies on purporting to show that P(something else) is very nearly zero, and that P(immortality) should be 1-P(something else), thus very nearly one.

Any time his critics reach consensus on how Jabba's terminology is specifically and provably misleading, he simply changes it so that they have to slog once again through nailing him down on what those terms really mean. R and NR have the same problems as H and ~H. But because they're purportedly new concepts in a new formulation, Jabba insists they be evaluated de novo.

Because Jabba doesn't understand statistical inference, he doesn't grasp that all he could defensibly do with his approach and this problem is to show something relative regarding P(immortality|datum)/P(something else|datum) for various values of something else -- say, materialism -- and for some given string of data, thus some P(immortality)/P(something else) as relative posterior probability assuming good data. For the problems statistical inference is actually used for, that would be valuable finding. But it wouldn't necessarily amount to proof of P(immortality). That's Fatal Flaw 2.

Jabba will never do this because it requires him to expose some rationale for computing P(immortality) directly. He doesn't have one of those. He hopes merely to derive it indirectly from P(something else) and never have to explain himself further. Moreover, depending on formulation, such a rationale might need him to specify individual theories for immortality. P(reincarnation|X)/P(materialism|X) cannot be assumed the same as P(Christian resurrection|X)/P(materialism|X). The last thing Jabba wants is to be on the hook to actually describe and prove what he claimed he could. He wants to infer it -- without further description, effort, or ado -- from the purported failure of some other theory, take his curtain call, and depart the stage. This is essentially what most fringe arguments look like. The actual proposed theory is never directly tested; its purported prevalence is inferred from purporting to have independently and objectively falsified the mainstream theory, therefore making any competing theory somehow more probable. This is expressly what Jabba argues when he insists that all he needs to run against materialism is "any reasonable alternative." He wants to foreclose the need to prove it's more reasonable than what was discarded.
 
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Wrong. I'm not talking about rational claims, but rather that made by Jabba

What the hell you arguing with me for then? If I wanted to argue with Jabba then I'd argue with Jabba, I have no interest in arguing with Jabba-by-proxy.

You: "1 + 1 = 3"
Me: "Actually 1 + 1 = 2"
You: "But Jabba says it's 3!"

E (the data which is being conditioned on) must include every outcome which entails the data. Or differently, E must be the set of all outcomes consistent with the data. You wanna join Jabba in some make-believe world where it can be otherwise? Be my guest, but don't bother me with it.
 
Jesus gorram Christ out of all the discussions in the world why in the name of Zeus's butthole would you choose this one to threadnanny?

Jabba is claiming he's going to live forever because of math. Why the hell would you want to pull some sort argumentative white knight routine on that?

I seriously do not get this "Oh I need to show up those uppity intellectual skeptics!" routine.
 
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Jesus gorram Christ out of all the discussions in the world why in the name of Zeus's butthole would you choose this one to threadnanny?

Jabba is claiming he's going to live forever because of math. Why the hell would you want to pull some sort argumentative white knight routine on that?

I seriously do not get this "Oh I need to show up those uppity intellectual skeptics!" routine.

Rather than annoying me with this, have you considered pondering the question as to why a thread filled with supposedly "intellectual skeptics" would even need a "nanny" in the first place so as not to mess up basic math when debunking a guy who probably couldn't add two numbers together if his life depended on it?
 
What the hell you arguing with me for then? If I wanted to argue with Jabba then I'd argue with Jabba, I have no interest in arguing with Jabba-by-proxy.

You: "1 + 1 = 3"
Me: "Actually 1 + 1 = 2"
You: "But Jabba says it's 3!"

E (the data which is being conditioned on) must include every outcome which entails the data. Or differently, E must be the set of all outcomes consistent with the data. You wanna join Jabba in some make-believe world where it can be otherwise? Be my guest, but don't bother me with it.

Arguments by analogy always fail.

Also, you're mistaking...

... addressing a bad argument in terms of its internal inconsistencies...

for

... making a bad argument that is internally inconsistent.
 
I seriously do not get this "Oh I need to show up those uppity intellectual skeptics!" routine.

What's especially funny is that even Jabba was finally able to get the question right, so now for this one specific issue Caveman is literally the only person here who doesn't get it.
 
- OOFLam doesn't refer to the body (even for materialists)...

It most certainly does...
Dave,
- From before:

Dave,
- Whether physical or not, the sense of self involves the emergent property of awareness. It is a particular awareness that I've been referring to as "my existence." The non-religious model accepts the existence of awareness in you and me, but does not attribute awareness to Mount Rainier, grains of sand, or snowflakes.

So what? Being aware does not change how math works. It does not change how cause and effect works. I'm only aware because my brain exists and is functioning. My awareness only exists because my brain exists, because it's my brain that's aware.
- IOW, OOFLam is referring to a particular awareness, and not to the body (though the body might be totally responsible for the awareness).
 
The materialist hypothesis is that the body is totally responsible for the awareness because it's the brain that's aware. When we talk about only living once in the materialist hypothesis, we're talking about the body living once, because the body makes up the whole organism. The body is what's alive.
 
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The only reason to say this is to inform your audience that you're about put words in your opponent's mouth.


Straw man. P(E|H) has nothing to do with "OOFLAM" or "SSA" or any of the other concepts you've tried to foist via contrived acronym. You qualified your declaration with "even for materialists," so you can proceed either by saying what materialists really believe, or you can continue to lie about it.

a particular awareness...

There is no such concept in materialism.

...and not to the body

No such separation is possible in materialism. You keep talking about self-awareness as if it were some sort of separate entity from the body. A property cannot exist separately of its producing entity in materialism. That is the primary tenet of materialism, which you insist on misrepresenting.
 
Dave,
- From before:



- IOW, OOFLam is referring to a particular awareness, and not to the body (though the body might be totally responsible for the awareness).

But a particular awareness isn’t a separate entity. It’s a process generated by the brain, so your current existence is determined only by the existence of your body.
 
I know it's been asked before, but has Jabba ever answered where and how he draws the line for what gets to be immortal?

We know he thinks that people are immortal. We know he thinks mountains and snowflakes and VWs are not.

But what about chimpanzees? Dogs? Geckos? Cockroaches? Bacteria?

I can at least picture some arguments against those last two, but I can't think of any logic that could possibly say humans have this property but not other apes, and I would say lots of non-primates as well. Heck, even some non-mammals like crows show self-awareness.
 
Rather than annoying me with this, have you considered pondering the question as to why a thread filled with supposedly "intellectual skeptics" would even need a "nanny" in the first place so as not to mess up basic math when debunking a guy who probably couldn't add two numbers together if his life depended on it?

Dude you have any idea how many times I've seen some try-hard play this game? How many people I've seen Errol Flynn rope swing into a discussion with a knife in their teeth to be the big hero? It's always the same dance, always has the same steps, and the people stepping on toes are always doing it to the same beat.

So what is it? What's your Woo? Don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about spit it out and stop dancing around the bush. You have some Woo that you just love and one time a "skeptic" debunked it and you developed a chip on your shoulder over the whole "skeptic" idea because of it. So what it is? What's your angle? Religious apologetics? Science is an evil liberal conspiracy? GMOs, stem cells, chem trails? It's something. Some gris-gris of yours got stomped on and you're bitter, it's practically on your character sheet it's so obvious.
 
Dude you have any idea how many times I've seen some try-hard play this game? How many people I've seen Errol Flynn rope swing into a discussion with a knife in their teeth to be the big hero? It's always the same dance, always has the same steps, and the people stepping on toes are always doing it to the same beat.

So what is it? What's your Woo? Don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about spit it out and stop dancing around the bush. You have some Woo that you just love and one time a "skeptic" debunked it and you developed a chip on your shoulder over the whole "skeptic" idea because of it. So what it is? What's your angle? Religious apologetics? Science is an evil liberal conspiracy? GMOs, stem cells, chem trails? It's something. Some gris-gris of yours got stomped on and you're bitter, it's practically on your character sheet it's so obvious.
Spoiler: It's anarcho-communism.
 
Dave,

- From before:







- IOW, OOFLam is referring to a particular awareness, and not to the body (though the body might be totally responsible for the awareness).



3ebda047f2a4584321cae0ae245f6336.jpg
 
Dave,
- From before:



- IOW, OOFLam [U][U][U]is[/U][/U][/U] referring to a particular awareness, and not to the body (though the body might be totally responsible for the awareness).
IOW, it's your JILpu (Jabba Immortal Lie per usual) where you dishonestly force your words into someone else's mouth and your other JILpu where you refer to the process of consciousness as "particular".

Does the model you're trying to refute include souls and have "particular" awareness?

Materialism doesn't.
 
Dave,
- From before:



- IOW, OOFLam is referring to a particular awareness, and not to the body (though the body might be totally responsible for the awareness).

And thus you admit that you H, whatever it is, is simply not materialism at all. thus materialism goes in your ~H pot and you are setting about disproving something else which seems to you to be staring out of two sets of eyes (also not materialism).

Whatever it is you think you are proving or disproving it certainly is not materialism. By your reckoning, materialism resides firmly in your ~H.

Good for you, you are proving that materialism is far more likely that whatever it is your H is.

OOFLAM. Or ABCDHIJKLMNOPQURTUVWXYKZ. What ever it is, it is not materialism and you have claimed that materialism is just as likely as whatever it is that you claimed proove, whatever that is.
 
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