The Deep State and its real motives

[Upchurch]

Functionally yes, practically no. Deep State is also the idea that the bureaucracy is fundamentally partisan and engaging in political manipulation. It isn't just reframing it in more frightening language but attributing motive and effect. See the writing off of the FBI as being entirely out to get Trump the whole time and so on.

It also works under the assumption that disagreeing with Trump's actions, or even pointing out when they are illegal, is inherently partisan rather than, you know, doing their jobs. The same could be said about Trump's anti-press campaign.

 

[CORed]

Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.

Beureaucratic inertia is a real thing, as career civil service employees may be less than enthusiastic about carrying out policies they don't like. When the policies are the kind of idiocy that Trump is promoting, it might actually be a good thing.

However, the notion that this constitutes some kind of conspiracy to subvert the will of the people is laughable. Rush's notion that the "deep state" deliberately fed misinformation to the Bush administration about WMD in Iraq is so beyond ridiculous. The Bush administration flat out ignored anything that didn't fit their agenda to invade Iraq. They weren't fooled by the "deep state"; they fooled themselves.

The only real alternative to beureucratic inertia would be to give the executive branch the authority to fire government employees at will, which would lead inevitably back to all Federal jobs being filled by political patronage, a cure far worse than the disease.

 

[Stacko]

I thought the subject of the alleged "Deep State" probably deserved a thread of its own. Especially as I couldn't think of a suitable thread in which to post this fun nugget: Rush Limbaugh opines that the Deep State were responsible for planting fake evidence about Saddam Hussain having WMD's, in order to embarrass Bush

It's quite a versatile theory, this "Deep State" - you can use it to excuse anything by anybody, it seems.

I guess Donald Rumsfeld and Newt Gingrich are the Deep State. The NSA archive releasing a pile of memos the day after this showing the Bush Admin was looking for any reason to invade Iraq back in 2001 is serendipitous timing.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Turns out that the Strzok/Page emails contain an exchange in which they are both angered by a suggestion from someone who doesn't work for the FBI that they misuse FBI resources in order to help Clinton and harm Trump

 

[TragicMonkey]

I always think Deep State sounds like a hidden subterranean kingdom of mole people. We should make friends with them, they know where all the gold and oil is!

 

[blutoski]

I see your point (and this is the point that I think is worth debating about the use of the term) but a bureaucracy tends to act as a moderating force on political extremes in either direction, if by no other means than its inefficiency in implementation of changes. So, i think for someone like Trump, or conversely if Bernie had been elected, a bureaucracy is always going to seem like it is partisan even if it really is not.

Right... the idea of a bureaucratic inertia seems to be an important part of the American Founders' vision. It's the reason the Seal has a pyramid on it. It represents the state, which is solid and hard to move, while inept or malevolent elected representatives come and go.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

It's the Jews again, isn't it?

 

[Mumbles]

I thought the subject of the alleged "Deep State" probably deserved a thread of its own. Especially as I couldn't think of a suitable thread in which to post this fun nugget: Rush Limbaugh opines that the Deep State were responsible for planting fake evidence about Saddam Hussain having WMD's, in order to embarrass Bush

It's quite a versatile theory, this "Deep State" - you can use it to excuse anything by anybody, it seems.

As Stacko wrote, this is a great example of how patently stupid this conspiracy theory is. When you talk to the actual people in this supposed "Deep State", you quickly discover that it's full of career bureaucrats that see it as a duty to provide elected officials with the best possible data and analysis regardless of the party of said officials. So, for example, the reports of Russia interfering with Dolt 45's admin isn't some incredible "deep state" conspiracy, it's something that the workers warned him (and Clinton, and likely every other candidate who had a chance of winning) about, and that they told them the consequences of - and which his team immediately ignored, and thus set themselves up for prosecution and bribery.

...now that I think about it, pretty much any time the idiot in chief complains about some "deep state", it's been about someone warning him that his policies are harmful for every purpose except for him and his cronies stuffing money into their pockets. It doesn't shock me to see other bigoted conspiracy theorists like Limbaugh (along with left wing nuts like Jimmy Dore) eagerly taking up the same talking point.

That's not to say that intelligence is perfect - in particular, "analysis" is often an educated guess based on collected but possibly flawed data. Yes, COINTELPRO was a genuine conspiracy, as shown by evidence. Yes, there were career workers who thought it possible that Hussein had WMDs. But we know of COINTELPRO precisely because of additional data, and the "Saddam has WMDs!" case was wildly overstated by non-career officials, and should have ended for good when the UN inspectors turned up nothing.

More importantly, both are cases of elected or appointed officials getting out of pocket, rather than some evil conspiracy among analysts or field workers. J. Edgar Hoover, Cheney and Rumsfeld, Dolt 45 and family - all are examples of corrupt people manipulating data and analysis for their own ends. And all had the power to do so via either election or appointment.

ETA: Simply put, the reason that the career folks tend to push against Republicans is that they're the folks that are tasked with collecting and analyzing data and prosecuting corruption, and over the past couple of decades, the Republicans have been the major source of corruption and routinely ignore facts and reason.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, it's certainly a conspiracy theory. But since it's one that's touted seriously by the POTUS, I think a thread discussing it belongs in USA Politics.

Still, if you want to, feel free to report it to the mods, and they can decide.

I'm a vote for leaving it in the USA politics because it's going to get thick around here in the next month or two with the Trumpers trying to stir this up as a means of getting their base to disbelieve Mueller's findings.

I suspect their goal is to make sure the GOP legislators either have an out for not impeaching the POTUS or they actually want to convince the legislators that indeed the case against Trump is fabricated.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.

"Bureaucracy" is not being asserted as the reason Dumpy Trumpy is being persecuted.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Now that we're in the age of the shallow state our worries are over. It's a beautiful state, the like of which we've never seen before.

What a perfect description.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

My two cents:
Its a scare label but:

If you mean a concerted effort with the government bureaucracy to achieve particular political goals, that almost certain doesn't exist and in the absence of more evidence, is just a CT.

If you mean, government bureaucrats have incentives that mean they tend to support particular political goals and these biases result in bureaucracies collectively acting to aid or hinder the agenda of elected officials then you probably have point worth talking about. Numerous cabinet secretaries have complained about how hard it is to get the bureaucracies to change. If anything should be taken from Benghazi its that this form of the "Deep State" occasionally gets people killed.

I do think the second form almost certainly benefits Democrat administrations. Seriously, if you have a boss who got his job in part by promising to get rid of a bunch of jobs in your department, reduce your benefits, and make you work harder, you're not going to give it your all to advance their agenda.

There's some serious twisting of the facts there. I'll have to get back to them later.

 

[sts60]

Deep State vs. Derp State.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Deep State is just a facade for the Deep Hidden Inner Secret State (DHISS) yah gotta watch out for

D'uh!

I don't quite get it that some people in the thread think "deep state" is something other than a trumped up scam to distract from the Trump-Russia investigation.

 

[Butter!]

I thought "Deep State" was basically Illuminati-lite. I see it used in essentially the same contexts.

Want to sound edgy but slightly less crazy than PrisonPlaneteers? Just say "deep state."

 

[The Big Dog]

Turns out that the Strzok/Page emails contain an exchange in which they are both angered by a suggestion from someone who doesn't work for the FBI that they misuse FBI resources in order to help Clinton and harm Trump

If they were part of a “deep state” operation to keep Trump from being elected, weaponizing government power to target a critic of the FBI and root out anti-Clinton forces within the bureau would’ve been a pretty solid move.

Face palm....

 

[Cleon]

I thought "Deep State" was basically Illuminati-lite. I see it used in essentially the same contexts.

Want to sound edgy but slightly less crazy than PrisonPlaneteers? Just say "deep state."

Yeah, this is a classic CT.

 

[Allen773]

Forget the Deep State, what about the Deep State WITHIN the Deep State? So deep that it hits the bottom of the Marianas Trench....

Deep stuff, I know.

 

[dudalb]

It's the Jews again, isn't it?

It's always the Jews......

 

[Allen773]

But to be serious for a minute, wouldn't the Deepest parts of the Deep State be the lowest-level, greenest analysts in the CIA and the NSA? Doesn't seem like they'd have much power, to be quite honest.