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Split Thread Science cannot explain consciousness, therefore....

Really? That's quite amazing if so, sans sarcasm. I have no idea what that would be like. If I relax, especially before sleep, I can visualise objects very clearly, and I can also lucid dream at will - the images in lucid dreams far exceed the clarity of everyday life and you're fully conscious all the time. I must say, if I lost this ability I might jump in the river.

Yep I can't even count sheep.

I suspect I am rather like someone blind from birth being told about vision. It sounds like an amazing superpower you all have but since I've never had it I don't miss it.

I do wonder mind you if it might be why (this was from a radio documentary) some people can't cope with going blind and kill themselves soon after losing their sight. If I lost my sight the world would always be - well I can't even say "black" because it isn't black "I see" it is literally visual nothingness. Quite a scary thought now I reflect on it.
 
Yep I can't even count sheep.

I suspect I am rather like someone blind from birth being told about vision. It sounds like an amazing superpower you all have but since I've never had it I don't miss it.

I do wonder mind you if it might be why (this was from a radio documentary) some people can't cope with going blind and kill themselves soon after losing their sight. If I lost my sight the world would always be - well I can't even say "black" because it isn't black "I see" it is literally visual nothingness. Quite a scary thought now I reflect on it.

So, if you're in a dark room with your eyes closed you don't see dim colours and fuzzy shapes? I can't imagine just not seeing anything.

Slightly OT, here's something that I've never heard mentioned by anybody else, and no doubt I'll be called out on it and called woo-woo, but I think it's quite interesting.

Ten or so years back, after waking from dreaming sleep, I began to see very clear animated patterns in my field of vision; probably a better word for them would be geometries. My eyes were still closed and I was very much awake. After a couple of episodes these geometries clarified and became so vivid and colourful and precise they are essentially impossible to describe. They consist of amazingly detailed cartoons or billions of perfect 3D shapes (mostly cubes) or incredible constructs like entire worlds of visible, painted mathematics.

And here's the strange (-er) part. Being a good skeptic, I wondered what these geometries could be. I researched the usual neurological literature and found nothing. I read Strassman's book on DMT and he describes similar experiences in his DMT-injected subjects, and I wondered if my experiences might be a product of naturally occurring DMT in the brain. I did some research on the internet and ended up reading about this bloke called Alex Grey. Grey is an artist and author and into a spiritual bag. I read that he is a user of LSD and DMT and that he creates paintings of his trips, so I checked them out. The very first one I saw was this one (linked) and here's the weird thing - it is so damn close to what I see it's like I painted it myself. When I experience these images they're vastly clearer, and animated, but the similarity is staggering.

http://revolutionofthemind.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Alex_Grey_Trip.jpg

Unfortunately I haven't seen any of these images since around 2016, but I hope they will return.
 
How clearer can I be? I consider myself conscious but I don't have qualia. Since it was claimed that qualia are necessary for consciousness I am therefore "proof" that even if qualia exist they are not necessary for consciousness.

Does pain hurt? If yes, then you have qualia. If no, then I guess you're a p-zombie???
 
No.

This is what I was referring to earlier about something I learned about only comparatively recently, I do not have what is called "a minds eye".

For all my life I thought people were just being poetic about "seeing" things when they close their eyes, when they said "I can imagine a red apple". I did not realise that you all actually meant you see something like you see something in the real world. I cannot "visualise" anything in my minds eye, when I think about someone I can not call up their face in my mind, I cannot "experience red" unless I am looking at something that is red.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia

This means I have no separate "experience of redness" away from my direct perception of things that are red. Therefore I do not have "qualia" so even if they exist they are not a necessary component of consciousness.

I always knew you were a p-zombie.
 
Darat said:
I have no separate experience of redness away from my direct perception of things that are red
If you have an experience of red the memory of it can be stored in your mind. The fact that it is a memory does not invalidate it because an
experience is any event that happens to you regardless of any thing else. Memory is both remembered experience and an actual experience
 
Larry - what do you mean when you say that you "experience" something called "consciousness"? What sort of experience is that?

Do you mean that you visualise scenes and events? And/or that you sense certain "smells" or "sounds" etc?

Is that what is manifest as your "experience"?

Lets narrow this down a bit and try get to the nitty-gritty of what is really being claimed here - take as an example the visual effect, because that's by far the most familiar and obvious thing - when you say you have a "conscious experience", do you mean (as one example) that you can "see" things? Is that part of what you are reporting as your "conscious experience"?

I am proposing a model, where experience is 'aware of x', where x is a diverse array of content, content including sense perception, images, symbols, thoughts, dreams and the inertia of sleep. Per this discussion I am less concerned with the x, the content; and more interested in the 'aware of' aspect of the model. This aware of aspect is the constant that allows for subjective experience - like a movie screen allows for diverse content to be projected on it (an analogy). This aware of also includes an element of existing and being, so I am defining 'consciousness as being present, being aware'.
Per this conservation I am less interested in the contents of experience because consciousness is capable and willing to entertain all content equally, including the rational, irrational, ludicrous, contradictory and etc. For example, I can think thoughts such as Trump is a great President, Trump is a terrible President, circles are round, circles have square corners, etc. . . and any and all of these thoughts can be entertained equally. (Though I may judge them differently by introducing yet another thought(s)).
Now re visual experience, it's difficult to express the experience because our language heavily reinforces the notion of an external physical separate world, for example, "I see the tree" vs how we actually see which is closer to: "A tree is experienced in consciousness"
As I sit here, I can feel the hardness of my desk, I can taste tea in my mouth, I can remember what my Grandmother's face looked like, etc. - - - all these experiences may come from a different source, yet they are all appreciated by the same 'substance', which is 'being present, being aware'
 
Ah the "whichness of why" dodge.

it's not accurate to ask how one knows one 'has' consciousness as consciousness is not a property or an object, one is consciousness as 'being present and being aware'
And how did you learn to call "being present and being aware" consciousness?
I honestly have no idea what your question refers to - but I may have answered it above
 
No, no, and thrice no. It is not the same. Blind sight does not rob you of the ability to focus on your sight, you can focus all you like and you're not going to see anything because the normal visual pathways are no longer in play.

Here is the Wikipedia page on blindsight.
Blindsight is a disorder in which the individual sustains damage to the primary visual cortex and as a result, loses sight in that corresponding visual field. Patients, however, are able to detect stimuli in that damaged visual field which attributes the "sight" portion in the term blindsight.

So they lose sight but can still detect stimuli. As you wrote they are not conscious of seeing anything yet stimuli is coming through since when asked to guess something they cannot "see" they still manage to get it right.

No - the scans show the "primary" visual systems are destroyed, they also show that other parts of the brain can and still do process visual stimulus. It appears that our consciousness requires the visual cortex intact for us to be able to invoke the internal narrator (consciousness) to say we can see something.

In a nutshell. Visual data travels from the eyes down the optic nerve to the lateral geniculate nucleus (LGN). The LGN relays the data to the visual cortex.
The visual cortex is divided into 5 visual systems (V1-5) and the LGN relays data separately to these.
Blindsight seems to occur when you get damage to V1, leaving the LGN and V2-5 intact.
So V2-5 still receive and process input.

This explains why people with blindsight can react to vision without being aware of it. Data is entering the brain and processed on a subconscious level but due to the damage to V1 is prevented from entering conscious experience.

This has nothing to do with zoning out.

Really, please explain to me what you think happens when your brain tunes out stimuli.
 
Here is the Wikipedia page on blindsight.


So they lose sight but can still detect stimuli. As you wrote they are not conscious of seeing anything yet stimuli is coming through since when asked to guess something they cannot "see" they still manage to get it right.



In a nutshell. Visual data travels from the eyes down the optic nerve to the lateral geniculate nucleus (LGN). The LGN relays the data to the visual cortex.
The visual cortex is divided into 5 visual systems (V1-5) and the LGN relays data separately to these.
Blindsight seems to occur when you get damage to V1, leaving the LGN and V2-5 intact.
So V2-5 still receive and process input.

This explains why people with blindsight can react to vision without being aware of it. Data is entering the brain and processed on a subconscious level but due to the damage to V1 is prevented from entering conscious experience.

Really, please explain to me what you think happens when your brain tunes out stimuli.

That is all you need to understand. You're wrong to equate it with zoning out but that doesn't matter because the point is to make the distinction between data processing and conscious experience.
 
I am proposing a model, where experience is 'aware of x', where x is a diverse array of content, content including sense perception, images, symbols, thoughts, dreams and the inertia of sleep.


First, before we get into the heart of the matter, I think there's a semantic problem with your choice of words above, and it's one that could easily lead to all sorts of misleading consequences - presumably, you do not mean to say that "experience" is the same as being "aware" of anything. Presumably you meant to say that so-called "consciousness" is another name for "awareness"?

That's likely to be an important distinction, because it can end up as completely misleading if you say that "experience" of anything is the same as "awareness", when by "awareness" you actually also mean "consciousness". To explain that -

- just because you "experience" something, i.e. something happens to you, that does not necessarily make you are aware of that event. What is claimed to be making you aware of anything, is the thing that you & everyone else here has been calling "consciousness" ... i.e. the thing that in science we would ascribe to normal brain function. That is (to explain it!) - the brain interacts with the nervous system through all sorts of complex and rapid chemical and electrochemical processes, to produce a sensation or "effect" that we call "consciousness" ... that's not of course the same as "experience"

However saying that it was a simple semantic issue (i.e. just use of the wrong, or less accurate/appropriate word) to say that "experience" was the same as "conscious awareness", means that when you begin with a confusion like that, then you are very likely to end up by misdescribing and misrepresenting everything that follows.



Per this discussion I am less concerned with the x, the content; and more interested in the 'aware of' aspect of the model. This aware of aspect is the constant that allows for subjective experience - like a movie screen allows for diverse content to be projected on it (an analogy). This aware of also includes an element of existing and being, so I am defining 'consciousness as being present, being aware'.


OK, well lets take first your conclusion, i.e. the definition that you arrived at in the last line of that paragraph where you say “so I am defining 'consciousness as being present, being aware' “ … well that is certainly NOT a definition that makes any attempt to define or explain what you mean by consciousness … because all you have done is to say that by “conscious” you mean “aware” … but “awareness” is just another word that is being used for “consciousness” … i.e. those two words are used interchangeably to mean the same thing, so it does not explain or “define” anything about “consciousness” to say it is “being aware” … you have to say what you actually mean by “being aware” …

… what do you mean when you say you are “aware" of anything?

That's actually the question I was asking here several times before, i.e. can you describe what you sense or experience when you say you are “conscious” of anything? … what is manifesting as “thoughts” in your “mind”? You started to give an answer to that above, when you said “it's like an image projected on to a movie screen” (that's an accurate re-arranged paraphrase of your sentence above), but that is just describing visual imagery as an impression or effect in your thoughts/mind, i.e. in the working of your brain with your sensory/nervous system … that's all fairly well understood in medicine, and it's a simple physical result of normal brain function and the sensory system, i.e. it's what we call vision! … you can see things, because you have functioning eyes, and eyesight is fairly well understood, as also is the way the brain interacts with eyes to create a visual image of things.

Now you might object that, apart from things we actually see whilst fully awake, we also "see" apparent images in dreams whilst in a sleeping state. But afaik, that is also fairly well understood. That is – the sensation of dreaming, and imagining visual scenes, smells, sounds etc., is not regarded within medicine or science as some amazing inexplicable mystery … it's presumably (we can check) explained largely by the effect we call “memory”, that is – a representation of those senses of sight, smell, sound etc. is retained within the cells of specific parts of the brain, and they can be recalled as memories which seem to us in dreams as if they are real events happening at that moment … they are recalled and processed/altered “memories”, but that is not some amazing mystery.

That's probably as far as I need to go without addressing your remaining two paragraphs, where I think you are just mostly repeating what you have already said above (and which I've just replied to).

So just to be clear about the reply I've just given -

- if you say that the effect that you are calling “consciousness”, i.e. “awareness” (that's just two words meaning the same thing), manifests itself in such things as visual imagery, where you said it was like seeing things on a movie screen … you are just describing what we call sight in awake states, and memory effects from sleep states, all of which are afaik very well understood in medicine (even without needing psychology or neuroscience) … and they are certainly not examples of a world around us that does not actually exist. They are certainly not examples or evidence for "everything happens within consciousness" (to quote your own previous statement).


Just on a separate issue – over the last couple of pages there has been considerable discussion of something called “Blindsight”, and a paragraph was quoted which actually comes from Wikipedia, where a patient with so-called “blindsight” was able to walk down a passage avoiding objects … but whether or not the effect of “blindsight” is correctly described (such that the patient is truly entirely blind to any such objects, and/or can always easily avoid them), that is certainly not an example of an unreal world or any sort of support for solipsism (and that is the issue of dispute in this thread) – in that example the patient and the object were stated as entirely real (they exist in a real world!), and even the condition of blindsight itself is said to be a physical injury to a real living brain … it just seems to be an example of how brain damage can produce all sorts of unusual an unexpected responses in unfortunate patients. However, having said that, a lot of the case studies in books by authors like Oliver Sacks, do stray into areas of medicine that are far from clearly verified and accurately described in verified published research. E.g., all sorts of reports of so-called “Savants”, inc. “musical Savants”, which is something that I've read about quite a lot in books inc. those from Oliver Sacks … it's interesting and unusual stuff, but I suspect it's also quite far from being verified exactly as described in many of those popular-level books.
 
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Yep I can't even count sheep.

I suspect I am rather like someone blind from birth being told about vision. It sounds like an amazing superpower you all have but since I've never had it I don't miss it.

I do wonder mind you if it might be why (this was from a radio documentary) some people can't cope with going blind and kill themselves soon after losing their sight. If I lost my sight the world would always be - well I can't even say "black" because it isn't black "I see" it is literally visual nothingness. Quite a scary thought now I reflect on it.

I decided to read the last page of this topic and see this post of yours. I did not know such a condition existed. Have you discussed it with ophthalmologists? There is a department of the RNIB in London (King's Cross) where there is someone who knows all about the Charles Bonnet syndrome and I bet there's someone there who would be most interested in what you are saying.
 
So, if you're in a dark room with your eyes closed you don't see dim colours and fuzzy shapes? I can't imagine just not seeing anything.

Slightly OT, here's something that I've never heard mentioned by anybody else, and no doubt I'll be called out on it and called woo-woo, but I think it's quite interesting.

Ten or so years back, after waking from dreaming sleep, I began to see very clear animated patterns in my field of vision; probably a better word for them would be geometries. My eyes were still closed and I was very much awake. After a couple of episodes these geometries clarified and became so vivid and colourful and precise they are essentially impossible to describe. They consist of amazingly detailed cartoons or billions of perfect 3D shapes (mostly cubes) or incredible constructs like entire worlds of visible, painted mathematics.

And here's the strange (-er) part. Being a good skeptic, I wondered what these geometries could be. I researched the usual neurological literature and found nothing. I read Strassman's book on DMT and he describes similar experiences in his DMT-injected subjects, and I wondered if my experiences might be a product of naturally occurring DMT in the brain. I did some research on the internet and ended up reading about this bloke called Alex Grey. Grey is an artist and author and into a spiritual bag. I read that he is a user of LSD and DMT and that he creates paintings of his trips, so I checked them out. The very first one I saw was this one (linked) and here's the weird thing - it is so damn close to what I see it's like I painted it myself. When I experience these images they're vastly clearer, and animated, but the similarity is staggering.

http://revolutionofthemind.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Alex_Grey_Trip.jpg

Unfortunately I haven't seen any of these images since around 2016, but I hope they will return.



Check out the Charles Bonnet syndrome and acephalgic migraines.
 
it's not accurate to ask how one knows one 'has' consciousness as consciousness is not a property or an object, one is consciousness as 'being present and being aware'
And how did you learn to call "being present and being aware" consciousness?
I honestly have no idea what your question refers to - but I may have answered it above


Larry (with the best will in the world towards what you say, really!) - you start that reply again with the wrong descriptive word when you say "it's not accurate to ask how one knows one 'has' consciousness". And that's a big problem, because it means that all your subsequent conclusions and ideas are likely to be seriously mislead by starting with a mistaken or wrong adjective/meaning in the first place.

You do not really mean it's an "inaccuracy". What you presumably mean (what in that sentence would make sense in the correct use of language), would be to say something like "it's not accurate reasonable or not fair to ask how one knows one 'has' consciousness" ... but as soon as you write something like that, then it immediately reduces your claim to one of saying that you refuse to try making a genuine answer simply because you think it's being unfair to you ... and that is certainly not a valid abjection.

There is nothing to stop you (or anyone else here) from describing what you are experiencing as any sort of mental imagery or sensation when you say you are having a conscious impression of anything.

But the reason I asked you (or anyone here) to do that, is that I suspect (it's a guess) that as soon as you try describing it, it will become obvious that you are just describing things like memory and vision etc. which are all well understood within normal medicine (without any need to get vastly more high-powered scientists like mathematical physicists and chemists involved in testing everything).

Though that was not intended as a trick or trap of any kind. It was just an example of how, when you actually think clearly about, and try to describe clearly, what you mean by "consciousness" so as to describe the details of your thoughts, it will probably (I suspect) become clear that you are only ever describing reasonably well understood functioning of the brain & the sensory/nervous system, and not in fact describing anything which should still be regarded as "the (philosophically!) hard problem of consciousness", and certainly not as something being claimed as evidence to show that reality has no existence outside of our own "consciousness".
 
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If you have an experience of red the memory of it can be stored in your mind. The fact that it is a memory does not invalidate it because an
experience is any event that happens to you regardless of any thing else. Memory is both remembered experience and an actual experience

Which for me and the others like me is not the same thing. I can recall that a London bus is red, that is a fact, I do not have any way of experiencing that "redness" unless I am looking at a red London Bus. For me there is no "visual" experience sans perception.
 
Does pain hurt? If yes, then you have qualia. If no, then I guess you're a p-zombie???

Of course it doesn't, the cascade of damage or destruction of nerves and other tissues are what "hurt". Hurt is simply a human behaviour that we exhibit when our body is stimulated in a certain way, so when hurt I will say "ouch" or I will shake my hand in the air when I've hit my thumb with a hammer.

No qualia in sight.
 
I always knew you were a p-zombie.

HPC/p-zombies were something we discussed here right at the start of the forum, I believe it may even have been the impetus for the creation of the first "R&P" section. And back then I didn't realise that I had this abnormality in the way my brain/mind works. Which is why for me I've always said I'm a p-zombie by the definition of those that claimed there is a HPC, what they described as attributes of being a p-zombie seemed to describe how I experienced the world! I didn't realise that other people have quite a different internal "experience".

To me this has really rammed home the concept that we can't assume anything in these types of discussions.
 
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How do conversion disorders fit in? I had a patient that went blind but regained her vision at a later date with no organic cause found. The doctors attributed it to a conversion disorder. I have a hard time understanding how the conscious or unconscious mind can willfully decide not to have vision.
 

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