Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

[Vixen]

Do you even read the pages you link to?

Judging from the picture on wikipedia and the one in the article I linked to above, I'd say you've got the wrong person...

PS At least according to the Motivations report (page 1)

OK, fair enough. Silly me.

 

[Vixen]

The guilters must really have some issues with not reading their references.

The Italian Wikipedia article for the Paolo Bruno born in 1935 in Mottafollone, Italy, calls him "è un politico e avvocato italiano". That is, "he is an Italian politician and lawyer". The text under his photograph, on the right, states clearly that he is a member of the Italian Parliament, Chamber of Deputies ("Deputato della Repubblica Italiana"). He is not a judge, and one cannot be a judge and a member of parliament in Italy at the same time.

So, again, the guilters are using fabrications in place of valid arguments, because they have no valid arguments. The other nonexclusive possibility is that the guilters have an inability or unwillingness to actually read the references that they (almost never) cite.

At the time you could. Given people like Hellmann et al were vulnerable to political lobbying - as we saw - it was made a rule that judges couldn't serve as contemporary members of the cabinet in Italy.

This change was quite recent, and likely the direct consequence of the dud verdicts in the Kercher trials.

 

[Vixen]

Yes. DR it is. Your ilk will simply dwindle into internet obscurity and there is nothing you can do to stop it. You personally may not like that much, and likely will resort to an ever decreasing circle of mirrors. But your cause will fade and die. And so it should. The movement was born out of hate, and in hate it will die.

Nobody cares anymore.

Don't tell me what I think and feel.

 

[Methos]

Do you even read the pages you link to?

Judging from the picture on wikipedia and the one in the article I linked to above, I'd say you've got the wrong person...

PS At least according to the Motivations report (page 1)

OK, fair enough. Silly me.

Yes, silly you...

Maybe you could provide the pictures for the following claims you made?

You are kidding right? Rocco Sollecito Godfather of the Canadian mob, assassinated in his car, is a close relative of Francesco, who was seen attending his memorial service in Bari (from whence both of them hail).

Raff himself was pictured sunbathing on Republic of Dominican beaches (in the middle of his Appeal hearings) with a wellknown mobster.
Popular destination for serious criminals due to its lack of extradition treaties with other countries, inlcuding specifically Italy.

Please.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes. DR it is. Your ilk will simply dwindle into internet obscurity and there is nothing you can do to stop it. You personally may not like that much, and likely will resort to an ever decreasing circle of mirrors. But your cause will fade and die. And so it should. The movement was born out of hate, and in hate it will die.

Nobody cares anymore.

Don't tell me what I think and feel.

You must have read another message from abbadon, because he/she neither tells you what to think nor what you should feel.

The only thing I quibble with abbadon about is that all of us have dwindled into internet obscurity. There is nothing anyone can do about it. The case is simply solved and finished, and the Italian judicial system (with one exception) got it right. Almost three years ago.

"Nobody" cares anymore? Well this thread continues, albeit as a mere shadow of its former self. Most certainly the principals have long since moved on. Save for Mignini who still contends that the 2015 Italian Supreme Court acted illegally. And save for a handful of English-language nutters, no one seems to agree with him.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, silly you...

Maybe you could provide the pictures for the following claims you made?

Please.

You can find it on TJMK.

 

[Vixen]

You must have read another message from abbadon, because he/she neither tells you what to think nor what you should feel.

The only thing I quibble with abbadon about is that all of us have dwindled into internet obscurity. There is nothing anyone can do about it. The case is simply solved and finished, and the Italian judicial system (with one exception) got it right. Almost three years ago.

"Nobody" cares anymore? Well this thread continues, albeit as a mere shadow of its former self. Most certainly the principals have long since moved on. Save for Mignini who still contends that the 2015 Italian Supreme Court acted illegally. And save for a handful of English-language nutters, no one seems to agree with him.

I am telling him not to tell me what my thoughts and feelings are.

I'll be the owner of them, thanks.

I am proud to say that I care.

 

[Bill Williams]

I am telling him not to tell me what my thoughts and feelings are.

I'll be the owner of them, thanks.

I am proud to say that I care.

1. Abbadon did no such thing. Read the post.

2. Yes you are.

3. Pride goeth before the fall.

 

[Bill Williams]

You can find it on TJMK.

So - you can't point to them. Last time you posted a link it made no sense. You even apologized, which is a good thing.

 

[LondonJohn]

At the time you could. Given people like Hellmann et al were vulnerable to political lobbying - as we saw - it was made a rule that judges couldn't serve as contemporary members of the cabinet in Italy.

This change was quite recent, and likely the direct consequence of the dud verdicts in the Kercher trials.

Citation for these claims please. Specifically that:

1) Up until "quite recent(ly)" (when?), a "contemporary member of the cabinet in Italy" (what does that even mean?) could simultaneously serve as a judge;

2) Hellmann (do you mean the court presided over by Hellmann, perhaps?) was "vulnerable to political lobbying" (and who are "we" who "saw" it?);

3) That this alleged change in the rules (presuming, of course, that you can support this claim in any case.....) was "likely the direct consequence of the dud verdict in the Kercher trials".

Thank you in advance for your provision of evidence to support your (somewhat extreme and extraordinary) claims. You know that's how it works, right?


(PS: Anything along the lines of "You can read it on TJMK" will be laughably inadequate - just so you know.....)

 

[Stacyhs]

There was a discreet memorial service. What was banned was the traditional parade through the streets. Can't stop people from calling a church service.

The public mass (service) was banned, not just the "parade through the streets" as you claim. What was held was a private memorial at 6 A.M.

But Francesco Cacucci, the Archbishop of Bari-Bitonto, issued a ban on the public celebration, describing it as a "serious scandal" while threatening disciplinary action against the priest, La Stampa reported.

A private mass for Sollecito was instead due to be held at 6am this morning.

https://www.thelocal.it/20161227/uproar-as-priest-invites-public-to-mass-for-slain-canada-mafia-boss

You have provided no evidence that Dr. Sollecito attended it. Saying it can be found on TJMK is not evidence; it is merely a claim by someone who has a long history of making unsubstantiated claims.

Edit: further research questions whether even the private ceremony took place:

(ANSA) - Bari, December 27 - A Mass in memory of a Canadian 'Ndrangheta mafia boss killed in Quebec in May was cancelled Tuesday morning in a village near the Puglia city of Bari.
The priest at Grumo Appula had wanted a public ceremony in memory of Rocco Sollecito Tuesday afternoon but was slapped down by the local bishop, who first ordered a strictly private ceremony at six o'clock in the morning and then, at the last minute, ordered the doors shut. The priest, Father Michele Delle Foglie, said he would appeal to Pope Francis "to receive me as a father welcomes a grieving son".

Nor have you provided evidence of any "close" relationship of Dr. Sollecito and the mobster.
But, for argument's sake, let's suppose they were first cousins. That, in no way, shows that Dr. Sollecito had any ties to the Mafia which is what TJMK implies nor that the Mafia had any influence in the trials.

 

[Stacyhs]

Don't tell me what I think and feel.

And this coming from the woman who constantly tells us what Knox and Sollecito thought and felt. Oh, the sweet irony.

 

[Stacyhs]

I looked at TJMK and here is what was said about Dr. Sollecito attending the memorial service:

Rocco was murdered in May 2016. Francesco attended a private memorial service for him just outside Bari. Why would a pillar of the community, a respectable doctor, do that? Either he didn’t think he would be noticed or he didn’t care. If the latter, that’s some chutzpah! Are he and Rocco distant cousins? Rocco was originally from Bari. That’s where Francesco lives and Raffaele was born. I suspect that they share more than a surname and Raffaele’s sojourns in the Dominican Republic was more than a coincidence.

Posted by James Raper http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/being_reported_Significant_Developments/

Notice that no evidence of this attendance is presented nor does he even know the familial relationship, if any.

It was to be a public mass, but the police stepped in and banned it, one of the priests said dead guys are dead guys and lets show them some respect, and so the private service was at 6:00 am.

http://bari.repubblica.it/cronaca/2016/12/26/news/grumo_boss_sacerdote-154883508/

Coming after Raffaele twice met with Rocco and a year later finally beat the rap, it would make sense for Francesco to be among the very few there at 6:00 am to pay his respects.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/10/17 at 10:21 PM

Slick Pete is also wrong that it was the police who banned it. It was Bari-Bitonto Archbishop Francesco Cacucci.
It does not go unnoticed that Slick Pete also presents no evidence that Raffaele "twice met with Rocco". So much for the "you can find it on TJMK" assertion by Vixen.

In every single article I have read, no mention is ever made of any connection between Raff's family and Rocco Sollecito. Not one.

 

[Bill Williams]

In every single article I have read, no mention is ever made of any connection between Raff's family and Rocco Sollecito. Not one.

That's because all the papers are Mafia controlled. The Masons have enough money to buy off both the judiciary AND the papers.

...... esp. when the Seattle based PR machine can kick in a little extra.

 

[Bob001]

I'm astonished that this thread goes on, and even more that apparently there are people who don't understand that Amanda and Raffaele were railroaded.

Subject for discussion: Could they have been convicted on the same evidence/lack of same in the U.S. or UK? I would like to say absolutely not, but Italy isn't the only place where the innocent can get convicted.

 

[bagels]

I'm astonished that this thread goes on, and even more that apparently there are people who don't understand that Amanda and Raffaele were railroaded.

Subject for discussion: Could they have been convicted on the same evidence/lack of same in the U.S. or UK? I would like to say absolutely not, but Italy isn't the only place where the innocent can get convicted.

It's difficult to do a pure apples to apples comparison. For example the US has a more sophisticated criminal investigative structure, and Rudy Guede would possibly have been in the CODIS database from his prior arrest, meaning Amanda Knox never would have made it to suspect status before the case was solved.

But on the other hand there are plenty of local bumbling cops and ineffectual lower courts that have convicted people on little to no evidence here. The main difference is the higher courts are (for now) generally more professional and epistemological, functionally processing the truth and information of the case and coming to something resembling the correct answer. In Italy the higher courts seem indistinguishable from the lower courts, packed with random contradictory opinions and subjectivity. The Chieffi decision in this case was, legally speaking, an abortion.

 

[Bob001]

....
But on the other hand there are plenty of local bumbling cops and ineffectual lower courts that have convicted people on little to no evidence here.
....

But in the U.S. the appeals courts don't review the evidence. After conviction, a person found guilty is presumed to be in fact guilty. They just review the trial record for errors by the judge or the lawyers. Winning an appeal is an uphill battle. In Italy, at least, the appeals courts re-examined the case from scratch.

In fact, in the U.S. actual innocence isn't necessarily sufficient to win an appeal if deadlines have passed or the jury's decision could be seen as reasonable.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/28/nation/la-na-court-actual-innocence-20130529

 

[bagels]

But in the U.S. the appeals courts don't review the evidence. After conviction, a person found guilty is presumed to be in fact guilty. They just review the trial record for errors by the judge or the lawyers. Winning an appeal is an uphill battle. In Italy, at least, the appeals courts re-examined the case from scratch.

In fact, in the U.S. actual innocence isn't necessarily sufficient to win an appeal if deadlines have passed or the jury's decision could be seen as reasonable.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/28/nation/la-na-court-actual-innocence-20130529

Well I think the only reason Amanda Knox was acquitted in the end is because the US made it clear to Italy there would be no extradition. So they would have had one of their own citizens sitting in prison for decades while the American girl runs free and goes on Oprah or w/e. It was politically unsavory and embarrassing for them probably, especially since they only cared about her in the first place and nobody gives a rats ass about Rudy or Raff.

Amanda Knox was already acquitted in an automatic re-trial in the Italian equivalent of a full trial de novo, complete with jurors (lay judges). This decision would have been irreversible in the US.

At any rate Knox would have multiple grounds for appeal in the US (luminol admitted to trial without confirmatory testing, DNA admitted to trial without proper protocols and subsequent data files, prosecution illegally admitting witnesses obviously committing perjury, etc etc)

 

[Bob001]

.....
At any rate Knox would have multiple grounds for appeal in the US (luminol admitted to trial without confirmatory testing, DNA admitted to trial without proper protocols and subsequent data files, prosecution illegally admitting witnesses obviously committing perjury, etc etc)

Interesting that you use that example. In the U.S. it is apparently not illegal for prosecutors to offer evidence at trial that they know is or could be false.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...they-present-at-trial/?utm_term=.ce39fc33e3f3

 

[Bill Williams]

Subject for discussion: Could they have been convicted on the same evidence/lack of same in the U.S. or UK? I would like to say absolutely not, but Italy isn't the only place where the innocent can get convicted.

Probably 95% of convictions are well deserved. In my time of doing court accompaniment I saw many prosecutors throw in the towel, in court, when it was evident there'd been no case.

Yet Debra Milke in AZ was freed after years of wrongful imprisonment. Just today Kirstin Blaise Lobato was freed in NV with prejudice for a murder 17 years ago that she couldn't have committed. Nyki Kish in Canada was convicted for murder within an otherwise confusing street melee, conviction sustained at appeal, for the trial judge's "irresistible inference" that only she could have done it. He'd had to cherrypick evidence and ignore other items pointing to differing people.

In that sense Italy is no different. The Sollecito/Knox trials should have ended with the 2011 acquittals. But it was not a unique event when considering miscarriages of justice.