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Trans Women are not Women

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Marcus said:
There you go. It seems some are very insistent on dictating which pronouns I am allowed to use. Not going to happen.
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No, you are demanding a right to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves, based on their proving themselves to you. You are quite right that your personal feelings mattered nothing to Jenner. They also matter nothing to every single other human being in existence. Just as I don't get to decide your gender, you don't get to decide anyone else's but your own.
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
No, you are demanding a right to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves, based on their proving themselves to you. You are quite right that your personal feelings mattered nothing to Jenner. They also matter nothing to every single other human being in existence. Just as I don't get to decide your gender, you don't get to decide anyone else's but your own.
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Kind of think that is a bit scew wiff there

In normal every day life

People can chose to call themselves whatever they want. But this doesn't mean other people can't chose to disagree the person and ignore what they wish to be called.

Personally go with the person normally.

The other problem that might come up is without some sort of guide some people are bound to get it wrong which gets a bit ugly.

Maybe we should all have badges.....We could have different shades of a rainbow spectrum for every one and we could have graphs at primary school to learn it along side maths.

But then someone will say none of the colours truly suit "them"


With womens sport

If you were born a dude and spent most of your life a dude you have an advantage. Bad luck
 
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Silly Green Monkey said:
No, you are demanding a right to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves, based on their proving themselves to you. You are quite right that your personal feelings mattered nothing to Jenner. They also matter nothing to every single other human being in existence. Just as I don't get to decide your gender, you don't get to decide anyone else's but your own.
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He isn't demanding to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves. He is demanding to dictate what pronouns he uses for others.

In the general case the latter is still a dick move, but those two things are certainly different.
 
I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.
 
Worm said:
I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.
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As a man who has tights that he bought for Victoria's Secret (and loves them) I agree that it's weird. I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.
 
Roboramma said:
As a man who has tights that he bought for Victoria's Secret (and loves them) I agree that it's weird. I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.
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Tights or pants?
 
bluesjnr said:
Tights or pants?
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Both I guess; yoga pants. You can see me wearing another pair in my avatar. Those ones aren't Victoria's Secret, but they are a women's line. I think Hard Tail maybe.

I don't actually wear them on the street, but I do wear them when I'm doing yoga.
 
Worm said:
I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.
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It's almost as if there are different sexes

Take me

I myself chose not to wear a bra.

I thought it was because I didn't have tits.

But maybe it isn't. Maybe I am just a victim of stereotype
 
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cullennz said:
I myself chose not to wear a bra.

I thought it was because I didn't have tits.
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That would be a very good reason for not wearing one! :)
But it doesn't explain the embarrassment or revulsion that men feel at the very idea!

Roboramma said:
I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.
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I mentioned a similar thing in the Kevin Spacey thread recently:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12067791#post12067791
 
Roboramma said:
Both I guess; yoga pants. You can see me wearing another pair in my avatar. Those ones aren't Victoria's Secret, but they are a women's line. I think Hard Tail maybe.

I don't actually wear them on the street, but I do wear them when I'm doing yoga.
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It all makes perfect sense now.
 
cullennz said:
With womens sport

If you were born a dude and spent most of your life a dude you have an advantage. Bad luck
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Yes. If you are Caitlin Jenner, you have a body that you don't get by growing up female, even if the male hormones are now lacking. Sure, there are taller women, I've seen college womens basketball players as tall as 6' 6", but the structure is not the same.
 
Marcus said:
You may make your own decision on what gender you think I am based on the best information you have available. Unfortunately , unlike Jenner, I don't have numerous interviews, and even an autobiography, upon which to base your conclusions.
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Ah, 'based on the best information you have available'. That's actually an excellent standard!

The problem is you're simply using invalid criteria, and the best information we have available on gender does not agree with your position on 'only a she if post op' opinion. See the below link.

Oh you're 'allowed' to use the wrong pronouns if you really want (besides in some specific cases and it can add evidence to charges of harassment), but everyone around you is allowed to think less of you for it. They're even allowed to call you out for it and disagree. What you call 'not being allowed' is really just thus far been 'people disagreeing'.

Argumemnon said:
So what does make someone a man or a woman? Is the claim enough?
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Do you think that Marcus can know if any given person has had surgery to alter their genitals? The answer to your question doesn't actually validate the claim I was arguing against.

But here is that link again from the last time this dance happened. The claim is enough for the vast majorities of interactions. You accept the claim already for the overwhelming majorities of interactions. What do you believe you base it off of?
 
Worm said:
I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.
Click to expand...

Roboramma said:
As a man who has tights that he bought for Victoria's Secret (and loves them) I agree that it's weird. I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.
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I've often summed up my thinking on that as 'I don't want to wear women's clothes; I want there to be acceptable men's dresses.' Anything to get to wear yokata more often really.

Women's clothes, for all their other issues, have far greater variety of cut, color, style, and fit over every social situation. I use women's leggings because they're cheaper, nicer, and more common than men's (I mostly use them as thermals or around the house, but they work for yoga and martial arts too).
 
tyr_13 said:
...I want there to be acceptable men's dresses.' ...
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There have been for some time. Kilts - ok, they're skirts, but all the same to me - and kaftans have been around for a year or two. Even Homer Simpson wore a kaftan. Pasifika men wear skirts as well as traditional dress.

The Houyhnhnms couldn't work clothes out 300 years ago, so it's not an easy question.
 
The Atheist said:
There have been for some time. Kilts - ok, they're skirts, but all the same to me - and kaftans have been around for a year or two. Even Homer Simpson wore a kaftan. Pasifika men wear skirts as well as traditional dress.

The Houyhnhnms couldn't work clothes out 300 years ago, so it's not an easy question.
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And the pope and priests wear dresses

They try to butch it up by calling them robes, but they're not fooling any one
 
davefoc said:
I have not read a single other post in this thread. I am curious how than there can be more to say on this issue. There must be because at this point the thread is several pages long, but what the heck is everybody else talking about that wasn't covered by Oystein's post. I'm going to go look now.
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Indeed.

I'm catching-up. Men are not identical to women? Is that about right?
 
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