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Trans Women are not Women

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sadhatter said:
They would hamper equal competition, but if your advantage is 50 per cent and you are sacrificing 30 per cent of it for drugs you still have an advantage.
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Yes.

I disagree with your presentation of the facts. So much so I feel it is dishonest. Whether we agree on how things should be done is irrelevant. A false statement is a false statement.
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:confused:
Can you at least tell me what I'm being dishonest about? What "false statement" did I make?

Thanks.
 
Should trans-women be banned from female competitive sports?

They should on average hold a competitive edge, which many might say is unfair.
 
One could also argue that a Naturalized American Citizen is not the same as an actual American Citizen. Because you were not born in the United States, and in many cases, your first language was not English. Unlike actual American Born Citizens, you were born somewhere else, and then you came here, learned English, filed an Application and were given a document that says you are now a Citizen. But that will never change where you actually came from and your inherent cultural formation.

However, would you claim that Naturalized American Citizens should be revoked of their rights as Americans?

No. Because it's irrelevant whether or not they are, technically, still immigrants. They came here, they went through the process, and now they are American. So who cares? Just let them live their lives as American Citizens.

Likewise, we can present all the scientific arguments to why a Trans Woman will never be the same as an actual woman, but who cares? This is about giving them their rights to live and be treated as human beings. Besides, the last thing a Trans Woman wants to hear is someone tell them why they're not in fact the same as women. Trans Women already deal with a lot of intolerance, and what they need is to be accepted.

Not saying all of the people here arguing why Trans Women are not Women, are not being tolerant. Just that it doesn't advance the problem. This is a problem about inclusion, not scientific accuracy. Religion may be Scientifically inaccurate, but we still allow people to practice whatever Religions they want.
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
Likewise, we can present all the scientific arguments to why a Trans Woman will never be the same as an actual woman, but who cares? This is about giving them their rights to live and be treated as human beings. Besides, the last thing a Trans Woman wants to hear is someone tell them why they're not in fact the same as women. Trans Women already deal with a lot of intolerance, and what they need is to be accepted.

Not saying all of the people here arguing why Trans Women are not Women, are not being tolerant. Just that it doesn't advance the problem. This is a problem about inclusion, not scientific accuracy. Religion may be Scientifically inaccurate, but we still allow people to practice whatever Religions they want.
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Except that trans-women already have the right to live and be treated as human beings. The issue at hand is whether women-only sports competitions are required to include them. So the analogy would rather be something like universities being required to have religious young-earth-creationists teach physics and biology because not doing so would be infringing on religious freedom.
 
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Ron_Tomkins said:
Likewise, we can present all the scientific arguments to why a Trans Woman will never be the same as an actual woman, but who cares? This is about giving them their rights to live and be treated as human beings. Besides, the last thing a Trans Woman wants to hear is someone tell them why they're not in fact the same as women. Trans Women already deal with a lot of intolerance, and what they need is to be accepted.

Not saying all of the people here arguing why Trans Women are not Women, are not being tolerant. Just that it doesn't advance the problem. This is a problem about inclusion, not scientific accuracy. Religion may be Scientifically inaccurate, but we still allow people to practice whatever Religions they want.
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Well I think Tyr made the point pretty solidly upthread that it's entirely possible to treat transwomen as women who have a physical condition that bars them from competing fairly with other women. Not every genetic woman gets to be an athlete. I suspect that it might make sense to treat transwomen who medically transitioned without ever going through male puberty the same as genetic females, but I'm not really savvy enough about the science to be sure.
 
Darat said:
As you can see with that example, no evidence.
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That they don't have evidence doesn't mean that they don't believe that it enhances performance. They might even just think it might enhance performance and consider that reason enough to add it to the banned list.
 
caveman1917 said:
Except that trans-women already have the right to live and be treated as human beings. The issue at hand is whether women-only sports competitions are required to include them. So the analogy would rather be something like universities being required to have religious young-earth-creationists teach physics and biology because not doing so would be infringing on religious freedom.
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Right. My bad. I wasn't following the thread, as I see it is focusing exclusively on the Sports Competition issue. Yeah, that one is different, and what you say is true. I mean, I don't know if you used the best analogy, but long story short, I agree that a Trans Woman has a series of physical advantages/differences from a woman when it comes to sports competition.
 
Oystein said:
I am a man of the garden variety. My body and its hormones happen to be balanced such that I am not very muscular.
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I'm the exact opposite and used to compete at fairly useful levels in strength sports, namely shot put and discus.

I've been having a think about this, and there not being too many 190 cm 100 kg shielas competing at masters level, I reckon I can put on a dress, gobble a few oestrogen tabs and set a few world records for women's masters.

Any money at that level?

Wolrab said:
Who would watch?
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Lots of guys.

cullennz said:
The other thing that I don't think has been mentioned is psychological advantage
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It hadn't, and it's an important and perceptive observation.

Why did you hack Cully's account?

Sideroxylon said:
The “some of my best friends are trans women” was a nice touch...
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Not only did I not say that, I merely noted that I'd been involved in trans-positive recruitment programs.

Sideroxylon said:
... as was the “has men’s DNA” pseudo-scientific essentialism.
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Pseudo-scientific? Do trans women not have XY chomosomes? Heck, I thought the oestrogen treatment only caused a few cosmetic changes, I wasn't aware it was acting at the molecular level as well. Does the get sucked back in and turns into a uterus?

Which neatly segues back to Germaine Greer's contention - that trans women don't have a uterus and therefore can't claim to be female, because they physically are not.

The fact that trans women are physically different to women born as women is a huge part of the argument. Some women seem to think so.

Sideroxylon said:
Casting aside the self reported motivations of a trans person and inserting a cynical greed driven one was a good platform.
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Pity Randi took the mio down - you seem to be aware of what all trans women's motivations are.

Ron_Tomkins said:
One could also argue that a Naturalized American Citizen is not the same as an actual American Citizen.
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Except it would be a really crappy analogy since there is no physical difference between the people, although I feel sorry for the American-born ones.

Ron_Tomkins said:
Likewise, we can present all the scientific arguments to why a Trans Woman will never be the same as an actual woman, but who cares? This is about giving them their rights to live and be treated as human beings. Besides, the last thing a Trans Woman wants to hear is someone tell them why they're not in fact the same as women. Trans Women already deal with a lot of intolerance, and what they need is to be accepted.

Not saying all of the people here arguing why Trans Women are not Women, are not being tolerant. Just that it doesn't advance the problem. This is a problem about inclusion, not scientific accuracy. Religion may be Scientifically inaccurate, but we still allow people to practice whatever Religions they want.
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I don't see any reason why we can't be tolerant and disallow them woman status.

I'm not sure I understand why acceptance as a female is so important to them, and I absolutely don't believe it's important to all of them, because many choose to retain their penis.

This seems to speak to that point - 99.5% of all M2F surgeries were breast implants only and only 0.5% genital surgery: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/m...ange-surgeries-than-ever-before-but-its-not-w

Might it not be that the voices clamouring for total control over being female are just the usual squeaky wheels and that a wide majority of trans are happy just to be trans?
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
Right. My bad. I wasn't following the thread, as I see it is focusing exclusively on the Sports Competition issue. Yeah, that one is different, and what you say is true. I mean, I don't know if you used the best analogy, but long story short, I agree that a Trans Woman has a series of physical advantages/differences from a woman when it comes to sports competition.
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Yes the analogy wasn't particularly good, I picked up on your analogy with religion and went with it, but you're right that my version didn't really come out that well.
 
The Atheist said:
I don't see any reason why we can't be tolerant and disallow them woman status.

I'm not sure I understand why acceptance as a female is so important to them, and I absolutely don't believe it's important to all of them, because many choose to retain their penis.

This seems to speak to that point - 99.5% of all M2F surgeries were breast implants only and only 0.5% genital surgery: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/m...ange-surgeries-than-ever-before-but-its-not-w

Might it not be that the voices clamouring for total control over being female are just the usual squeaky wheels and that a wide majority of trans are happy just to be trans?
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Bruce Jenner is the perfect example. Not only did he not have the surgery, he continues to have sex with women. Using his penis. Just dressing in womens clothes is not enough to make someone into a woman, at least by my definition.
 
Marcus said:
Just dressing in womens clothes is not enough to make someone into a woman, at least by my definition.
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It's also deeply sexist, by pretending that women really are the sex stereotypes (long hair, make-up, dresses, ...) our society ascribes to them. If a white guy were to put on a blackface, blast rap music, generally act like a stereotype of a black person, and then says "and therefor I now really am a black person" we'd have no problem seeing it as racist.

ETA: not saying that trans-genders are inherently sexist or something, but that this particular reasoning form: "act like stereotype of woman therefor really woman" is sexist reasoning.
 
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Marcus said:
Bruce Jenner is the perfect example. Not only did he not have the surgery, he continues to have sex with women. Using his penis. Just dressing in womens clothes is not enough to make someone into a woman, at least by my definition.
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Caitlyn Jenner is on record as saying she lived a lie and has always known she was a woman. Does that mean she is technically a rapist by deception to her ex wife? All those years she thought she was having sex with and was impregnated by a man. All elaborate lies. What a deceptive person she is.
 
caveman1917 said:
It's also deeply sexist, by pretending that women really are the sex stereotypes (long hair, make-up, dresses, ...) our society ascribes to them. If a white guy were to put on a blackface, blast rap music, generally act like a stereotype of a black person, and then says "and therefor I now really am a black person" we'd have no problem seeing it as racist.

ETA: not saying that trans-genders are inherently sexist or something, but that this particular reasoning form: "act like stereotype of woman therefor really woman" is sexist reasoning.
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Exactly endorsing the lie that women need to have cosmetic surgery to feel or be attractive. Short/fat/skinny/tall/manly with manly appendages all women of all races and all sexes, should feel comfortable even, nay.... ESPECIALLY if they have a penis and functional testicles.
 
Hungry81 said:
Caitlyn Jenner is on record as saying she lived a lie and has always known she was a woman. Does that mean she is technically a rapist by deception to her ex wife? All those years she thought she was having sex with and was impregnated by a man. All elaborate lies. What a deceptive person she is.
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That has to be the strangest statement I've read for a long time.
 
Darat said:
That has to be the strangest statement I've read for a long time.
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Not long ago another woman was charged with rape because she presented herself as a man https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...lMAI&usg=AOvVaw3FI7Xy1eFL8O5vy_sUwjZf&ampcf=1

This is similar what Caitlyn states she did. Acted like a man even though she knew she was a woman. Hell she was so into pretending she was a man she impregnated her wife. Thats dedication. Why does she get special treatment and the other girl gets scorn and 6 years prison?
 
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