Trans Women are not Women

[Marcus]

If I was a woman and was competing against a trans-woman in a sports event, I would feel cheated as the trans-woman would most likely have a physical advantage over me.

If I was a nation with few medals, I would put lots of trans-women onto my female Olympic track and field team so as to increase the odds of winning.

Or like Russia you could load the team with women tanked up on male hormones. I got a chuckle a few posts back when someone pointed you that some of the Russian women got so loaded up that they decided they were men, I didn't know that.

 

[cullennz]

Couple of things with this case about advantage.

Apparently bone density reduction is not as given with hormone replacement therapy as people think

Muscle mass is obviously reduced

The other thing that I don't think has been mentioned is psychological advantage

She used to compete as a dude and was lifting heavier weights.

Ie She knows in her head she can do it when reaching winning levels. Less doubts. Psychological hurdles etc

That to me is probably as advantageous as most of the other things

 

[sadhatter]

I'm a huge sports fan. Just as I am a huge art fan that prefers abstract art, I prefer abstract sport.

You have stated yourself you are self aware to know you often have the minority opinion. Keep that in mind when I say.

You are aware sport is a business right? They will not make money with your "moving for the sake of it" changes. If you like sports please hope no one ever listens to you.

 

[Roboramma]

You have stated yourself you are self aware to know you often have the minority opinion. Keep that in mind when I say.

You are aware sport is a business right? They will not make money with your "moving for the sake of it" changes. If you like sports please hope no one ever listens to you.

On the other hand there is something to be said for fights without weight classes. It's one of the great things about BJJ tournaments that they have the open weight division, which gives you things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uJDZsmiWGU

 

[sadhatter]

On the other hand there is something to be said for fights without weight classes. It's one of the great things about BJJ tournaments that they have the open weight division, which gives you things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uJDZsmiWGU

That's why all major fight clubs moved away from it?

Try again.

 

[Roboramma]

That's why all major fight clubs moved away from it?

Try again.

All major jiu jitsu competitions that I'm aware of have an absolute division.

I've competed in open weight many times. My record in my division is pretty good but while I've won matches in open weight against much larger opponents I've lost much more frequently. Size really does matter. My last open weight match was against Li Jingliang, maybe the best Chinese fighter in the UFC at the moment (I lost by 2 points, he outweighed me by more than 20kg).

I think there's a good argument to be made that it's overly dangerous in things like boxing and MMA where head trauma is involved.

It is true that a lot of guys in BJJ decide not to compete in absolute out of concerns related to injury, but striking based martial arts are different and have a different risk/reward calculation.

 

[cullennz]

All major jiu jitsu competitions that I'm aware of have an absolute division.

I've competed in open weight many times. My record in my division is pretty good but while I've won matches in open weight against much larger opponents I've lost much more frequently. Size really does matter. My last open weight match was against Li Jingliang, maybe the best Chinese fighter in the UFC at the moment (I lost by 2 points, he outweighed me by more than 20kg).

I think there's a good argument to be made that it's overly dangerous in things like boxing and MMA where head trauma is involved.

It is true that a lot of guys in BJJ decide not to compete in absolute out of concerns related to injury, but striking based martial arts are different and have a different risk/reward calculation.

All staged though isn't it

[Laughs at own joke wind up and sneaks away] [/]

 

[Sideroxylon]

This subject has been brought to a head in NZ by the inclusion of a trans woman in our weightlifting teams for the Commonwealth Games. Link: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opini...urel-hubbard-carrying-the-weight-of-the-world

She competed as a bloke until a few years ago when it occurred to him that under new rules he could compete as a shiela and actually win something he was actually a woman trapped in a man's body, despite having male DNA.

In these inclusionary times I find it interesting that the main group of people who openly agree with the thread title are Germaine Greer and other TERFs. (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) How appropriate that the very women who empowered women in the '60s are now, in their 60s, disempowering women.

I have no problem with trans women and even worked on a trans-positive hiring strategy with a couple of large companies, but I cannot and will not accept that they are the same as women. They are most welcome to use women's bathrooms, go to women's jails and changing rooms, but they're not actually women, and can see why Greer and others feel the same.

They have a choice.

No, I'm not saying gender/sexuality is a choice, but it certainly can be, as the significant - but small - sample of trans reversals displays.

The “some of my best friends are trans women” was a nice touch as was the “has men’s DNA” pseudo-scientific essentialism. Casting aside the self reported motivations of a trans person and inserting a cynical greed driven one was a good platform.

 

[Darat]

Are there sports which forbid the regular use of drugs that boost estrogen levels to those of a genetic female and concurrently suppress testosterone production toward the same end?

Had a look at a couple of sporting bodies regulations and I'm now surprised more athletes don't get caught using non allowed drugs. It's really, really complicated. There are mentions of "sex" hormones and drugs that can increase the natural production, I don't know if they would detect or allow the use of the drugs many transpeople have to use. But if not they could be added.

 

[Roboramma]

Had a look at a couple of sporting bodies regulations and I'm now surprised more athletes don't get caught using non allowed drugs. It's really, really complicated. There are mentions of "sex" hormones and drugs that can increase the natural production, I don't know if they would detect or allow the use of the drugs many transpeople have to use. But if not they could be added.

The drugs trans women use would hamper performance, not enhance it. Why would they disallow those drugs?

 

[Darat]

The drugs trans women use would hamper performance, not enhance it. Why would they disallow those drugs?

They disallow many, many drugs and even treatments that have zero evidence that they improve a specific athlete's performance, the idea behind the tests appears to be to ensure that athletes take no drugs.

 

[sadhatter]

All major jiu jitsu competitions that I'm aware of have an absolute division.

I've competed in open weight many times. My record in my division is pretty good but while I've won matches in open weight against much larger opponents I've lost much more frequently. Size really does matter. My last open weight match was against Li Jingliang, maybe the best Chinese fighter in the UFC at the moment (I lost by 2 points, he outweighed me by more than 20kg).

I think there's a good argument to be made that it's overly dangerous in things like boxing and MMA where head trauma is involved.

It is true that a lot of guys in BJJ decide not to compete in absolute out of concerns related to injury, but striking based martial arts are different and have a different risk/reward calculation.

Name me a league that can compete with pride or ufc for viewership. You know what I'm saying stop trying to try and street cred me out of a valid observation.

 

[sadhatter]

The drugs trans women use would hamper performance, not enhance it. Why would they disallow those drugs?

Hamper but not erase advantage over biological women. You need to remember to keep that part in, or you are being very dishonest.

It would be like saying if the rock fought me while 4 drinks in he is hampered. Sure technically correct but he still has a massive advantage.

 

[Roboramma]

Name me a league that can compete with pride or ufc for viewership. You know what I'm saying stop trying to try and street cred me out of a valid observation.

I think I actually agreed with what I thought you were saying: that it makes sense for something like MMA or boxing to not only use weight classes but also not to have open weight classes. From my perspective the reason is that it's important for the safety of the athletes. I'm not sure if you have a different basis, but if you do I would be interested. If that's not what you are saying you can clarify I guess.

I do think that the original UFC, which had no weight classes, was important in the form that it took, but it has passed its time and there's no reason to go back there now.

When it comes to Jiu Jitsu, the IBJJF Worlds has an open weight class. As does ADCC. These are the biggest tournments in BJJ in the world, so if we are talking about jiu jitsu, which is what the video I linked to was, then I don't see what else you are looking for.

 

[Roboramma]

Hamper but not erase advantage over biological women. You need to remember to keep that part in, or you are being very dishonest.

It would be like saying if the rock fought me while 4 drinks in he is hampered. Sure technically correct but he still has a massive advantage.

I think you think we disagree about things we disagree about. I certainly think trans women have an unfair advantage in at least many sports.

I don't think the solution is to disallow the drugs they are taking which only hamper and do not improve performance. The issue is not the hormone therapy. If they stopped taking them they would have an even greater advantage.

 

[Roboramma]

They disallow many, many drugs and even treatments that have zero evidence that they improve a specific athlete's performance, the idea behind the tests appears to be to ensure that athletes take no drugs.

No, that's not the idea behind the tests. There may be many drugs which are banned for invalid reasons, but there are also many other drugs which are not banned.

 

[Marcus]

On the other hand there is something to be said for fights without weight classes. It's one of the great things about BJJ tournaments that they have the open weight division, which gives you things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uJDZsmiWGU

Sumo doesn't have weight classes either. There are some tiny guys (under 300 pounds) in the top division (professional Sumo has 6 divisions) but it's unlikely any of them could ever make Yokozuna.

 

[sadhatter]

I think you think we disagree about things we disagree about. I certainly think trans women have an unfair advantage in at least many sports.

I don't think the solution is to disallow the drugs they are taking which only hamper and do not improve performance. The issue is not the hormone therapy. If they stopped taking them they would have an even greater advantage.

They would hamper equal competition, but if your advantage is 50 per cent and you are sacrificing 30 per cent of it for drugs you still have an advantage.

I disagree with your presentation of the facts. So much so I feel it is dishonest. Whether we agree on how things should be done is irrelevant. A false statement is a false statement.

 

[Darat]

No, that's not the idea behind the tests. There may be many drugs which are banned for invalid reasons, but there are also many other drugs which are not banned.

Not sure how you can conclude that given they ban many drugs which have no evidence of enhancement.

 

[cullennz]

Not sure how you can conclude that given they ban many drugs which have no evidence of enhancement.

Which in particular were you thinking of

Not that I particularly disagree, just genuinely interested