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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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The morticians tasked with restoring Kennedy's body are random strangers? You guessed wrong. The funeral arrangements memo seems to imply that they spent some time viewing the autopsy, and the actual people from Gawler's have described witnessing autopsy procedures before they started their restoration work.

Random as in they were employees of a commercial business, not doctors or medical professionals who participated in the autopsy.

It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.
 
Random as in they were employees of a commercial business, not doctors or medical professionals who participated in the autopsy.

It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.

I saw the Beatles in Busch stadium summer 1966. About 400' away in center field. Acoustics were terrible, they looked like midgets on stage, but it was fun with the girl that accompanied me.:)
 
Random as in they were employees of a commercial business, not doctors or medical professionals who participated in the autopsy.

It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.

Or Woodstock! :)

Hank
 
Or Woodstock! :)

Hank

Essentially, but we know how many seats were in Candlestick, and Woodstock was..."festival" seating and they opened the gates to all comers w/o need for tickets.

Long before The Beatles played Candlestick or any of other references cited occurred, my father had a comment on people who claimed to have been in this-or-that military action:

"I bet that If every man that claimed to have crossed the Delaware with George Washington were really there, it wasn't in a row boat, it would have to have been the Queen Mary."

I doubt the JFK assassination is much different.
 
It's kind of like how many folks claim to have seen The Beatles at Candlestick Park or who claim they were in the same venue during the World Series game when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit - in both cases, there are far more asses than seats.

It's roughly equivalent to the number of London Taxi drivers who claim to have been in the Blind Beggar when one of the Krays killed a man.
 
Essentially, but we know how many seats were in Candlestick, and Woodstock was..."festival" seating and they opened the gates to all comers w/o need for tickets.

Long before The Beatles played Candlestick or any of other references cited occurred, my father had a comment on people who claimed to have been in this-or-that military action:

"I bet that If every man that claimed to have crossed the Delaware with George Washington were really there, it wasn't in a row boat, it would have to have been the Queen Mary."

I doubt the JFK assassination is much different.

Yeah, but I really was at Woodstock!1
Hank
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1 October of 2013. Those nasty little footnotes make all the difference.
 
Essentially, but we know how many seats were in Candlestick, and Woodstock was..."festival" seating and they opened the gates to all comers w/o need for tickets.

Long before The Beatles played Candlestick or any of other references cited occurred, my father had a comment on people who claimed to have been in this-or-that military action:

"I bet that If every man that claimed to have crossed the Delaware with George Washington were really there, it wasn't in a row boat, it would have to have been the Queen Mary."

I doubt the JFK assassination is much different.

Exactly, that's where half of the JFK-CT books come from, some guy who pushed a gurney at Parkland writes a book about what he heard. Some orderly at Bethesda does the same thing.

It's like the 35,000 guys who claim to have been on the Son Tay Raid, the 8,500 SAS guys who stormed the Iranian Embassy, and so on.

One key feature to the JFK Assassination is that the most important witnesses didn't want to talk about it, and only spoke to law enforcement, and the WC. They never wrote books. Dr. Humes never wrote a book. Jackie gave a detailed interview about what happened in the limo, but it will not see the light of day for another fifty years. The Secret Service detail collaborated on a book that covered all three years (They claim all three shots hit the limo, BTW).

Time moves on and all we are left with are the original archived documents and evidence, and they all point to Lee Oswald acting, or at least shooting alone.
 
So Hank, your contended pieces of evidence are as follows:

1. The Gawler's Funeral Home "First Call Sheet" which records events of November 22-23,1963

2. The Gawler's "Arrangements File" which records arrangements for President John F. Kennedy's Funeral

3. Gawler's after-action report titled: "Funeral Arrangements for John Fitzgerald Kennedy"--events of November 22,23,24, and 25 are recounted.

4. Dr. Humes' testimony

There's nothing 'contended' about it. Those four pieces of evidence are contemporaneous (within a few days, except for Humes testimony to the Warren Commission, which came less than four months later on March 16th, 1964) accounts of what transpired at the autopsy.

Reminder that you introduced them all into this discussion, arguing for their importance at the time. I am only reading them and pointing out how they conflict with your weak attempts at post-hoc explanations.



The Sibert and O'Neil report can not be used as evidence because my argument is that they misunderstood the arrival of the Gawler's team with the conclusion of the autopsy, and left early.

Oh, sure - wait, what?

Just because you come up with a silly argument supported by no evidence whatsoever, doesn't mean you get to exclude the evidence you don't like and we have to honor that exclusion. Your argument is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization.

Words have meaning. We all know what the words "At the termination of the autopsy" mean. Except you, who wants to argue that the autopsy didn't really end there, but went on for another three and a half hours.



Furthermore, the original copy1 of the Sibert and O'Neil report lists Joe Hagan's presence as only "MR. HAGEN". The only person listed with a prefix replacing the first name.

False. On the prior page, "Major General Wehle" [Philip C. Wehle] is listed as entering the autopsy room during the autopsy, and no name is given other than his surname. "Adm. Berkley" [George G. Burkley] is also listed as attending the autopsy on the same page with only his surname.

Your claim is false, as is your reasoning below from that false claim.



In my view, this leaves open the possibility that they were just told about Joe Hagan and did not actually see him at the Bethesda morgue.

Nobody cares about your view. Your evidence doesn't support your view. Remember the document was typed up on 11/26/63, and they were undoubtedly relying on their notes taken on 11/22/63 to type that document. Clearly, there were some people whose first names they didn't take down (Wehle, Burkley, and Hagen), and they simply typed it up that way.

Or they were only told about those men and didn't see any of them.

Of course, on page 4, Dr. James Humes is referred to only as "Dr. Humes". So perhaps the real Doctor Humes left in the middle of the autopsy, and somebody else finished up?

Your argument is nonsense. Don't let that stop you. In my 25 years arguing with conspiracy theorists online, I've yet to see one conspiracy argument that makes sense when carried to its natural conclusion.

But even assuming your argument is true, let me point out you're now arguing for removing your chief witness for an alternative solution from your list of witnesses. Earlier, you were quoting Hagen's recollections extensively. Now you're arguing he wasn't even there "at the termination of the autopsy".



You may not care about history at all, but I am interested in reconciling every available piece of evidence.

No, your sole interest, as shown by your posting history here, is in wrenching every phrase you can out of context in pushing a conspiratorial alternative to the known solution of the President's assassination. You flit from argument to argument, never alighting on the most reasonable solution, to push this agenda. So "Hagen entered the autopsy room during the autopsy with the other morticians" and "Hagen wasn't there and the FBI agents were only told about him" are your alternate solutions.

Instead of the most reasonable, that the FBI agents knew how to read and write English, and wrote down exactly what happened:
At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial:
JOHN VAN HAESEN
EDWIN STROBLE
THOMAS ROBINSON
Mr. HAGEN


Period.




Only that your logic is appallingly bad.

Hank
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1 The "original copy"? Is it an original or a copy? Or both? Does the non-copy original or the copies of the original copy contain different language? What do you even mean? Do you even know?
 
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Yeah, but I really was at Woodstock!1
Hank
_________________
1 October of 2013. Those nasty little footnotes make all the difference.

I've got two questions for you - did you get to see Pete Townsend hit Abbie Hoffman in the head with his guitar, and did you see anybody carrying Townsend's guitar away after he tossed it into the crowd?
 
I've got two questions for you - did you get to see Pete Townsend hit Abbie Hoffman in the head with his guitar, and did you see anybody carrying Townsend's guitar away after he tossed it into the crowd?

That happened in October of 2013?

Hank
 
Okay, I waded into the new document release as far as I can stand it. I looked at around 800 files from the release date until yesterday.

Here's the summary:

EVERYONE WAS LOOKING FOR PROOF OF A CONSPIRACY FROM 11/22/1963.

They started by looking at Cuba and the Soviet Union. Oswald's trip to Mexico City was scrutinized.

Next, they looked at the KKK and right-wing groups - HARD.

Finally, they looked at the Mafia (mostly thanks to Jack Ruby).

Between 1966 and 1975 the Mafia became the villain of choice due to low-level informants talking about things they'd overheard, but not one incident was even independently verified. In the early 1970's the CIA leadership was asking if they had missed something with Oswald, and at the very least felt that he had been motivated by stories of CIA assassination attempts on Castro.

In 1977 the HSCA requisitioned tons of files looking into CIA anti-Castro operations: JMWAVE and MONGOOSE. Both used Mafia contacts to facilitate operations into Cuba. They re-hashed the original investigation as well.

The FBI documents show that they ran down EVERY LEAD. There are four or five reports of interviews with psychics, and people who ended up being residents of mental hospitals (they took the report anyway).

Hundreds of investigators from the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, and the HSCA looked at every angle, ran down every crackpot story, and in the end it came down to this:

Lee Harvey Oswald, for reasons unknown, killed JFK from the 6th Floor of the TSBD using his 6.5x52mm Carcano rifle.

Looking at the documents from 11/22/63 through 12/1966 it is clear from the tone of the inquiries that Hoover, McCone, and Johnson were hoping to find Oswald working for Castro. This raises the question, why cover anything up?

The closest thing to a conspiracy is that the documents show that the CIA recommended Oswald be looked at closer after his Mexico City visit, but Langley either never forwarded the recommendation, or the FBI shelved it. We see the same thing with 9/11. Even this isn't much of a conspiracy.

Thanks to the files we now have a comprehensive picture of the CIA's anti-Castro operations. MONGOOSE is laid out in detail. JMWAVE was a much larger operation working from multiple gulf states. This means there were a lot of dangerous men living and training at private estates, and government lands, and while nobody can link Oswald with any of them (yet) it makes me wonder how many unsolved murders and missing persons cases can be linked to this activity during that time frame.

Even if someone can finally put Oswald in the company of anti-Castro Cubans, compromised by Cuban Intelligence or not, he remains the sole actor in Dealey Plaza.
 
Oh hell I thought that Johnson would have been a prime suspect since "he was the only one ducking in his limo while the gunshots were raining down":rolleyes:
 
For 5 days I've been spending my JFK time re-reading testimonies, trying to reconcile them all together in a sequence. Hank, what is your opinion on this

http://jfk.deeppoliticsforum.com/JFKSecondAutopsy.pdf

Check out page 45 of the essay The Top Secret Second Autopsy of President John F. Kennedy by Bjørn K. Gjerde, under the section "EVIDENCE OF A SECOND AUTOPSY FROM THE TESTIMONIES".

What do you think about O'Neil questionable claim that he was present after the autopsy even late enough to see the dressing? That could be totally false and his statements have caused quite the confusion for me.

Another thing I have learned: Joe Hagan, John Van Hoesen, and Tom Robinson all corroborate eachother in saying they witnessed the autopsy while sitting on the bleachers starting very early around 8 PM, just as Kennedy's head examination was still being done. Joe Hagan even told Harrison Livingstone that the mahogany casket from Gawler's funeral home was delivered to the morgue much later after they arrived, in the "evening".
 
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O'Neill could not have seen the autopsy by the time of the dressing, unless you want to ignore countless contemporary records affirming that the body was totally ready for open casket by ~3:50 AM - 4:00 AM 11/23/1963.

FBI Teletype To: Director and SAC, Dallas From: SAC, Baltimore (dated November 23, 1963)

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This document from 2:00 AM 11/23/1963 is a contemporaneous copypasta relaying a message from Sibert and O'Neill soon after they departed the autopsy room.
 
You just posted a document that says there was a single GSW to the back of the head...measuring 6.5mm...same caliber as the Carcano.

The teletype was SENT at 2 a.m., it doesn't say what time it was written, nor does it say how long it took to collect notes, and get the information straight.

You are really bad at this.
 
For 5 days I've been spending my JFK time re-reading testimonies, trying to reconcile them all together in a sequence. Hank, what is your opinion on this

http://jfk.deeppoliticsforum.com/JFKSecondAutopsy.pdf

Check out page 45 of the essay The Top Secret Second Autopsy of President John F. Kennedy by Bjørn K. Gjerde, under the section "EVIDENCE OF A SECOND AUTOPSY FROM THE TESTIMONIES".

So now you believe THREE bullets struck JFK?...All from the front?

That's what this idiot claims with is theory. You are really bad at this.
 
This document from 2:00 AM 11/23/1963 is a contemporaneous copypasta relaying a message from Sibert and O'Neill soon after they departed the autopsy room.

2300-0200 is only three hours.
I'm not sure how you think this suggests there was time for a later autopsy than on record.
How little time are you thinking it takes for the additional paperwork and reports to be written and typed? For all the administrative jobs that carry on after the actual inspection of the body?
 
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