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For scientists who accept evolution

As we all know, the Theory has been modified countless times...
In generally small tweaks: Mostly to the history of evolution on earth.

...and significant disagreements are still in play even among the most fervid believers in the Theory.
Would a dispute about how a plane crashed constitute questioning the theory of flight?

And predictions? Blind pig finds an acorn is more apt. Is anyone keeping score of failed predictions, or "predictions" tweaked and re-tweaked to meet current "Facts as Interpreted"?
Failed predictions such as...? Tweaks such as...?
 
As we all know, the Theory has been modified countless times,...
It's call refinement, and it has been done in the appropriate direction, i.e. the theory has been refined to fit the data (in contrast to ID, where the data are massaged and misrepresented to fit the hypothesis).
 
Just realized an apparent contradiction: hammegk complains about evolution being modified (refined as chipmunk stew said), AND about it allegedly interpreting data to fit. (Though he hasn't posted an example of the latter, yet.)
 
Just realized an apparent contradiction: hammegk complains about evolution being modified (refined as chipmunk stew said), AND about it allegedly interpreting data to fit. (Though he hasn't posted an example of the latter, yet.)
:clap: Indeed. You only get to choose one, hammegk. Which will it be?

I failed to mention above: not only does ID tweak data to fit its hypothesis, it depends on a new definition of science itself! Talk about moving goalposts!
 
That is a gross simplification of the evidence. Even an independant investigation found his claims to be legitimate.

http://www.rsternberg.net/OSC_ltr.htm
They've only heard his side of the story. In particular, they only seem to have his views on what does and does not go in academia. He claims that he's been singled out. Reading the evidence, however, it seems that he has in fact made himself singular.
Anyway, the core point, I obviously am not going to be able to find a sponsor for Sternberg, yet his official status is as a research associate for the next three years. If you don’t want to make a martyr of him, I'll sponsor him.
Is this the “scientific community” trying to “ruin his career”? No. They’re trying to save it so that he cannot represent himself as a martyr --- as he is now doing.
After all, the manuscripts does nothing except poke holes in evolutionary processes that attempt to explain major changes in body architecture, and then gratuously [sic] concludes that because evolution cannot explain major architectural changes, intelligent design must be the process involved.
That is, it’s the typical ID rubbish. “I can’t explain this, nopt, mind you, that I've tried. Therefore it has no explanation. Therefore it has an explanation, namely, goddidit”. This is not science.
Please read my emails more carefully. I am not suggesting martyrdom for anyone. I am concerned about how and by whom the Meyer manuscript was reviewed.
Is that plain enough? This concern would be especially well-motivated if, as is claimed:
The ex-editor had already demonstrated a pattern of disregard for the well-established peer-review process in that journal, and that alone does not "follow prevailing standards for conducting research in the discipline" (SI D 205, page 4), as far as I can tell. That, taken with the AAAS resolution, should be enough to justify a "you are welcome to leave or resign" call or meeting to say so … All I can say is that this is plain embarrassing for us all in NMNH. What will be when a book on ID comes out with our name on it?
If he has caused this embarrassment to the museum by failing to do his job properly, then resignation would seem in order, would it not?
This whole embarrassment can be credited to the late [____] who nominated this man and to the BSW who entrusted him with the editorship of the Proceedings. Sternberg is a well-established figure in anti-evolution circles, and simply a Google search would have exposed these connections. Please place the blame where it squarely belongs. I immediately resigned from the BSW.
Apparently Sternberg’s career is not the only one to suffer, nor indeed the first.
Said RA *is not known who he reports to, or what decapod groups he is waiting on and for what projects/manuscripts; *comes to work "after hours only" but nobody knows when, yet we will extend him long term space privileges (meaning in the daytime his assigned space could be tied up); * keeps an unusual number of catalogued specimens in NMNH office, and for unusual lengths of time, ignoring requests from curator in charge to put Them back in stacks; * keeps in NMNH office what appear to be specimens that have not been registered through the required TM procedures; * has currently 50 books checked out from the SI library (I checked this with the library); * an SI staff from another NMNH department has been seen entering HA office and apparently handles specimens without authorization from IZ Cm head or curator in charge.

If I were to do this in any other museum I’d be run out of that town.
Remember that this is scientists talking amongst themselves, as they think in private, rather than something written for public consumption.

What really made me stretch my eyes was this comment by the OCS:
You are now required to give your supervisor an outline of your research. This may seem innocuous, but as you explain, this can be used as a method of controlling any controversial study. Also, you make the point that others in your position were not asked to do the same.
I should expect that others in his position weren’t asked this question! They think he’s been singled out? It is singular indeed for a research assistant to have to be asked what work he’s doing for the money he’s paid! It would be singular for any employee of any institution. Again:
people had to be investigating your work activities beyond that which is done for other RAs.
Now since we know from the emails that no-one knows what he was working on, or had any evidence that he was working at all (“comes to work "after hours only" but nobody knows when”), this matter would seem to call for some investigation.

I had some sympathy for the man before I looked closely at the website. My sympathy now is entirely with his unfortunate employers.
 
Just realized an apparent contradiction: hammegk complains about evolution being modified (refined as chipmunk stew said), AND about it allegedly interpreting data to fit. (Though he hasn't posted an example of the latter, yet.)

Let's be reasonable here. Science does actually perform these kind of actions on a routine basis, often both in the same experiment.

For example, let's suppose that I want to measure the atomic mass of copper (for whatever reason). I have the currently accepted "theory" (based on previous experiments) of 63.546 amu, which I will assume is accurate to +/- 0.001 amu.

Using my new gee-whiz copper-measurer, I get the following results in ten experimental results: 9 results within 0.00001 amu of 63.64552, and one experimental result of -6.35482, which occurred when my graduate student accidentally spilled coffee on the measurer during an experiment.

After chewing out my graduate student, I am likely to "interpret" the data of the last case to fit my existing theory that mass can never be negative, and to attribute that result to experimental error rather than the discovery of a previously unknown negative-mass isotope of copper. I then publish my "refined" theory of the mass of copper to take into account the new and accurate data.
 
As we all know, the Theory has been modified countless times...
I've never been able to figure out whether you're a liar, a lunatic, or mentally retarded. Either way, you're wrong. The theory of evolution has not been modified countless times. This is why you're completely unable to support your insane assertion that it has been.
 
I'd say anyone who utilizes the scientific method in a systematic way is a scientist. That doesn't mean that all scientists are equally qualified to make correct statements about science and reality.
 
They've only heard his side of the story. In particular, they only seem to have his views on what does and does not go in academia.

This is not true. Consider: they delved into email files, and were subsequently forced to halt interviews of his peers who reported the 1st Amendment digs due to his status as an RA, not an offical employee. They got a clear enough picture of what was going on.

Is this the “scientific community” trying to “ruin his career”? No. They’re trying to save it so that he cannot represent himself as a martyr --- as he is now doing.

They are protecting themselves from the fallout of their actions, or at least the fallout of the actions of key decision makers. Plain, simple as indicated by the two paragraphs immediately following your pull:

As he hasn’t (yet) been discovered to have done anything wrong, particularly compared to his peers, the sole reason to terminate his appt. seems to be that the host unit has suddenly changed its mind. If that’s OK w NMNH, let me know and I'll send him a letters stating so. However, as you decided originally, the political downside of that is costly. Outside of pique, [____]’s main legitimate concern seems to be a fear of guilt by association. In any case [____] isn’t going to be shut up about this until he wins (i.e. banishes Sternberg) or gets told to. I'm not going to get bit to death by daily emails. The access and key issues are trivial and can be fixed, if out of line.

And the OSE's statement: "Also these indicate that they are still attempting to find a reason to terminate you. You had not "yet" been found to have committed a terminable offense. They were still looking for a pretext."

Was he singled out? The OSE thinks so here and numerous other places:

Lastly, as you can see they were very interested in piercing the veil of peer review. Again, there is not information to indicate that this was done before the Meyer article.

This is not science.

Thus sayeth the gatekeeper.

Is that plain enough?

It is plain enough that the goddidit conclusion is unscientific. It is also plain enough that no one is allowed to scientifically "poke" at the TOE, no matter how many things TOE cannot, and may never be able to account for or if other explanations may be needed, discovered, or considered in the monopoly on truth.

Remember that this is scientists talking amongst themselves, as they think in private, rather than something written for public consumption.

It is refreshing to see that they were able to envision the consequences of their mistreatment. However what stopped them wasn't anything other than protecting themselves politically.

The quote to which you "stretched" your eyes:

You are now required to give your supervisor an outline of your research. This may seem innocuous, but as you explain, this can be used as a method of controlling any controversial study. Also, you make the point that others in your position were not asked to do the same.

If it bugs you that researchers there were not required to outline their studies, that is a group complaint or perhaps a management problem, not a Steinberg issue. That he must now show outlines of his research whereas others do not, again demonstrates the gatekeeper philosophy, and CS Lewis' belief that materialism will ultimately lead to the abolition of man.

Flick
 
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I've never been able to figure out whether you're a liar, a lunatic, or mentally retarded. Either way, you're wrong. The theory of evolution has not been modified countless times.

You are correct to say it has not been modified "countless" times. But would you accept that it has been modified several times? That doesn't at all mean it is an incorrect theory, only that it is a theory, and like all theories, it needs tweaking from time to time... but only by approved tweakers. :)


Table 2
Significant stages in the modification of Darwinism
Date Stage Modification
1883-1886 Weismann's neo-Darwinism End of soft inheritance; diploidy and genetic recombination recognized
1900 Mendelism Genetic constancy accepted and blending inheritance rejected
1918-1933 Fisherism Evolution considered to be a matter of gene frequencies and the force of even small selection pressures
1936-1947 Evolutionary synthesis Population thinking emphasized; interest in the evolution of diversity, geographic speciation, variable evolutionary rates
1947-1972 Post-Synthesis Individual increasingly seen as target of selection; a more holistic approach; increased recognition of chance and constraints
1954-1972 Punctuated equilibria Importance of speciational evolution
1969-1980 Rediscovery of importance of sexual selection Importance of reproductive

from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/darwinism.html

Flick
 
You are correct to say it has not been modified "countless" times. But would you accept that it has been modified several times? That doesn't at all mean it is an incorrect theory, only that it is a theory, and like all theories, it needs tweaking from time to time... but only by approved tweakers.

Half right.

It needs tweaking from time to time -- but only by tweakers who are supported by evidence.

If "approved" just means "people think that you're right," then there's no issue here to discuss.

if "approved" means something more than that, then you're simply wrong in your assertion.
 
You are correct to say it has not been modified "countless" times. But would you accept that it has been modified several times?
The theory has only been made more specific: from "inheritance with variation and natural selection" to "the laws of genetics and natural selection". This is why Steve Jones could modernise Darwin using the same chapter headings and summaries as were used in The Origin of Species. On the other hand evolutionary biologists then need to understand what the laws of genetics are, and what the consequences of the theory are, and in these areas our understanding has indeed improved and is still improving.
 
Of course, a changing theory implies that bits of it have been falsified, requiring that change to make it consistent with reality.

Dogma relies on unfalsifiability.
 
This is not true. Consider: they delved into email files, and were subsequently forced to halt interviews of his peers who reported the 1st Amendment digs due to his status as an RA, not an offical employee. They got a clear enough picture of what was going on.
But, as I pointed out, they seem to have no idea of what should or shouldn't go on in academia.
They are protecting themselves from the fallout of their actions...
They are protecting themselves from the fallout of his actions by protecting his career. Yes, the offer "I'll sponsor him myself" was politically motivated --- it would not have been made if only the quality of his work was at stake. Here we have a sinister conspiracy to protect a man's career. And why? Because he helped publish ID drivel.
Was he singled out? The OSE thinks so here and numerous other places:
As I have pointed out, he was singled out because there is something very singular about an RA who draws his salary without anyone knowing what he's working on, or when he's working on it, or if he's working on it. Of course similar enquiries were not made about other Research Assistants. This it is profoundly abnormal to have to enquire what an employee is doing for his pay.

If I go running through the streets naked, it is unreasonable to complain, after my arrest: "Why did you single me out?" The answer is: "Because you were the person not wearing any clothes."
Thus sayeth the gatekeeper.
Certainly if I, or anyone else remotly competent, had been involved in this supposed "peer review", that is exactly what I'd have said. Do you have any grounds for disagreeing?
It is plain enough that the goddidit conclusion is unscientific. It is also plain enough that no one is allowed to scientifically "poke" at the TOE
No-one? Who has silenced Behe or Demski or Wickramsinge?
It is refreshing to see that they were able to envision the consequences of their mistreatment. However what stopped them wasn't anything other than protecting themselves politically.
True. Despite the fact that any other RA behaving the same way at any other museum would, in their words, be "run out of town", they have to be specially careful of him because of the ID thing. He's lazy, he's incompetent, he breaks museum regulations, he's an embarrassment... but to avoid making a martyr of him "I'll sponsor him myself". He did indeed get special treatment because of his link with this article: and it was favorable.
If it bugs you that researchers there were not required to outline their studies...
That's weird. Let me say it again: it is normal for people who hire research assistants to know what they're doing for the money. I've been a research assistant myself. You don't get hired to do no-one-knows-what. But in Steinberg's case, as the emails show, it was in fact impossible to find out from him or anyone else what his studies were, what stage they were at, or whether he was pursuing them at all. Other RA's were not asked these questions because their supervisors already knew the answers. OK?
 
Half right.

It needs tweaking from time to time -- but only by tweakers who are supported by evidence.
Evidence? For example, Piltdown man. ;)


More recently, much to-ing & fro-ing on Lucy, out-of-africa, eve, etc.

And two kinds of actual evidence exist. The fossil record is notorious for the continuing failure to provide any incontrovertible "missing link", or even to demonstrate that "speciation occurs over long periods", with critters appearing and dying out in instantaneous geologic time.

The other evidence is at the biochem and life level. All evidence to date demonstrates mutation and change within species and never a speciation event, unless defined to be one after-the-fact.

Evolution, "The Origin of the Species", remains a just-so-story ready for the next (meaningless) revision.
 
Evidence? For example, Piltdown man. ;)


More recently, much to-ing & fro-ing on Lucy, out-of-africa, eve, etc.

And two kinds of actual evidence exist. The fossil record is notorious for the continuing failure to provide any incontrovertible "missing link", or even to demonstrate that "speciation occurs over long periods", with critters appearing and dying out in instantaneous geologic time.

The other evidence is at the biochem and life level. All evidence to date demonstrates mutation and change within species and never a speciation event, unless defined to be one after-the-fact.

Evolution, "The Origin of the Species", remains a just-so-story ready for the next (meaningless) revision.
So your answer to speciation is what, exactly?
 
The fossil record is notorious for the continuing failure to provide any incontrovertible "missing link", or even to demonstrate that "speciation occurs over long periods"
You are repeating a halfwitted fundie lie. Intermediate forms are abundant in the fossil record (Gould) and fine grained evolution can be seen in many lineages, as has been explained to you countless times.
The other evidence is at the biochem and life level. All evidence to date demonstrates mutation and change within species and never a speciation event, unless defined to be one after-the-fact.
You are repeating a halfwitted fundie lie. Speciation has been observed no matter how you and other refugees from reality try to shift the goalposts for the definition of "species", as has been explained to you countless times.
Evolution, "The Origin of the Species", remains a just-so-story
You are repeating a halfwitted fundie lie. The Origin has been confirmed empirically by biogeography, morphology, genetics, and the fossil record, as has been explained to you countless times.
... ready for the next (meaningless) revision.
You are repeating a halfwitted fundie lie (see, for example, my mention of Steve Jones above) as has been explained to you countless time.

Couldn't you at least learn some new halfwitted fundie lies? You only seem to know two or three, and I should think that even you --- or, indeed, a parrot --- has the brains to commit more drivel to memory than that. You'll find pleanty of the lunatic gibberish you love so much on, for example, Kent Hovind's website.

Cheers.
 
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Intermediate forms are abundant in the fossil record (Gould) and fine grained evolution can be seen in many lineages, as has been explained to you countless times.
And as we both know, Intermediate forms are in the eye of the beholder, and all the fine-grained ev is obviously micro-ev proving nothing.

You are repeating a fullwitted materialist lie.

Speciation has been observed no matter how you and other refugees from reality try to shift the goalposts for the definition of "species", as has been explained to you countless times.
You are repeating a fullwitted materialist lie.



The Origin has been confirmed empirically by biogeography, morphology, genetics, and the fossil record, as has been explained to you countless times.
The Origin remains a narrative account of wishful thinking with all actual evidence pointing in the wrong directions.

You are repeating a fullwitted materialist lie.

Couldn't you at least learn some new halfwitted fundie lies? You only seem to know two or three, and I should think that even you --- or, indeed, a parrot --- has the brains to commit more drivel to memory than that.
Great response at your usual level -- sound and fury signifying nothing.
 
I've never been able to figure out whether you're a liar, a lunatic, or mentally retarded. Either way, you're wrong. The theory of evolution has not been modified countless times. This is why you're completely unable to support your insane assertion that it has been.
I've thought each of these things about hammy at various times, but I have to keep modifying my theory with the evolution of his silliness.
 
And as we both know, Intermediate forms are in the eye of the beholder
This is a halfwitted lie. As I and all scientists know, they are in the fossil record.
and all the fine-grained ev is obviously micro-ev proving nothing.
Another halfwitted lie. The evolutionary changes which can be tracked are massive. Who the heck do you think you're going to fool by spewing out this nonsense?
The Origin remains a narrative account of wishful thinking with all actual evidence pointing in the wrong directions.
Another halfwitted lie, contradicted by all the evidence. Every last little bit of it.
You are repeating a fullwitted materialist lie.

You are repeating a fullwitted materialist lie.

You are repeating a fullwitted materialist lie.
I take it back. You don't have the brains of a parrot.
Great response at your usual level
I take it that's why you made a feeble attempt to imitate it. Am I meant to be flattered?
-- sound and fury signifying nothing.
... apart from those... pesky facts.

If you want to make a clown of yourself in public, learn to ride the unicycle.
 
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