Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

And if he didn't cop a feel but he doesn't want to call the women liars because they mistakenly believe he did?

Not everyone who is wrong is a liar, but notice how that seems to be the only option people believe Franken has: accuse the women of lying or you must have done it.

Like I said, xjx388, you just don't get it.
I get it just fine. It is really simple: If butt-touching did not occur then there are only two possibilities: the women are lying or they are delusional. What else could it possibly be?

If he did indeed touch their butts., there are again only two possibilities: he did it inadvertently or he did it on purpose.

Now, if he did it inadvertently; hey, we all make mistakes. A direct apology as in my #1 above would be appropriate.

If he did it on purpose . . .
I think he should have gone with option #1. But just because he hasn't or hasn't yet is no reason to assume #3, especially how you worded it, implies he groped the women in a sexual nature.
How is touching a woman's butt on purpose anything other than sexual in nature (mild though it may be), especially in the context of taking a photo with a woman you don't know? It's an extremely intimate thing to do.
 
There's the fault.

"It's possible/may have" requires an apology worded in a way that wholly endorses the claim?

I'm assuming he is true to his word in wanting to "respect their experiences." Respecting them means assuming they are telling the truth (why would they lie?) and then directly apologizing for the inadvertent contact.

Otherwise, you are correct. He could just deny the allegations if he doesn't remember them . . . even if it's technically possible he could have.
 
I get it just fine. It is really simple: If butt-touching did not occur then there are only two possibilities: the women are lying or they are delusional. What else could it possibly be?

Mistaken.

Anything else?

If he did indeed touch their butts., there are again only two possibilities: he did it inadvertently or he did it on purpose.

Now, if he did it inadvertently; hey, we all make mistakes. A direct apology as in my #1 above would be appropriate.

I think the apology he offered is quite appropriate, too. Especially given how fast people will drop the "inadvertent" part as soon as the statement is made and act like the secret, devious intention has been revealed.

If you don't strenuously qualify your remarks, people take all kinds of idiotic interpretations. If you do strenuously qualify your remarks, people say that's evidence you feel guilty.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If he did it on purpose . . .
How is touching a woman's butt on purpose anything other than sexual in nature (mild though it may be), especially in the context of taking a photo with a woman you don't know? It's an extremely intimate thing to do.

Ariana Huffington seems to have a theory.

It was on purpose, not sexual, and done to be funny.

I've done some independent filmmaking in my day. You'd be surprised how entirely not-at-all-remotely-sexy most erotic scenes look outside of the lens. I recall one where we literally just showed some legs rubbing across each other. The guy had his shorts bunched up so they looked like a pair of diapers on him and the gal is laying about 90 degrees off orientation from him holding one handful of shorts and texting on her phone.

Now that I think about it, that might not be too far off from some people's regular sexual experiences...

Got some great social media splash off of the BTS with that one. Hilarious wisecracks flying around, self-deprecating remarks, etc. So yeah, we used "sexual humor" between two people who have no sexual interest in each other to generate marketing buzz.
 
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And if he didn't cop a feel but he doesn't want to call the women liars because they mistakenly believe he did?

Not everyone who is wrong is a liar, but notice how that seems to be the only option people believe Franken has: accuse the women of lying or you must have done it.

Like I said, xjx388, you just don't get it.


OK. Then how about just saying, "That didn't happen"? No need to even mention if anyone is lying, mis-remembering, or even speculating why they made the claim. If it's not true, say so.

FYI, this is the claim made by one woman. This is what Franken hasn't flatly denied.

[Franken] pulled me in really close, like awkward close, and as my husband took the picture, he put his hand full-fledged on my rear. It was wrapped tightly around my butt cheek. It wasn't around my waist. It wasn't around my hip or side. It was definitely on my butt. I was like, oh my God, what's happening? I felt gross. It'd be like being walking through the mall and some random person grabbing your butt. You just feel gross. Like ew, I want to wash that off of me.

She posted this to her Facebook at the time (2010):
Dude -- Al Franken TOTALLY molested me! Creeper!
 
I get it just fine. It is really simple: If butt-touching did not occur then there are only two possibilities: the women are lying or they are delusional. What else could it possibly be?

If he did indeed touch their butts., there are again only two possibilities: he did it inadvertently or he did it on purpose.

Now, if he did it inadvertently; hey, we all make mistakes. A direct apology as in my #1 above would be appropriate.
Even after you posted 3 possibilities you ignore one of them: he's being careful not to accuse the accusers of lying.

If he did it on purpose . . .
How is touching a woman's butt on purpose anything other than sexual in nature (mild though it may be), especially in the context of taking a photo with a woman you don't know? It's an extremely intimate thing to do.
When did he say he did it on purpose?

Until he comes out and says I like to grab butts and I really did try to get a tongue kiss from Tweeden, I see his apology as trying to respect the women accusers.

You can see it as a milquetoast admission.

I don't see that you have any evidence that supports your interpretation of Franken's apology.
 
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OK. Then how about just saying, "That didn't happen"? No need to even mention if anyone is lying, mis-remembering, or even speculating why they made the claim. If it's not true, say so.

FYI, this is the claim made by one woman. This is what Franken hasn't flatly denied.

She posted this to her Facebook at the time (2010):
If Franken says, that didn't happen, he is accusing the accusers.

Do none of you understand chivalry?

Where's your link to the FB entry and the, "oh my God, what's happening?" is stupid. What did she think, he was going to grab a boob next? Her husband was right there, it was a photo op requested by the couple.

It was a couple second long photo, it's being blown way out of proportion.
 
Do none of you understand chivalry?


Better than you, apparently, and I'm rather surprised that you brought it up. The overwhelming body of the medieval codes of chivalry were rules of warfare. The parts that dealt with women were paternalistic and possessive, if not outright infantilizing. They were profoundly sexist and deserve to be left on the scrap heap of history.
 
Which is exactly the way I felt over forty years ago when total strangers came up to me at my mother's funeral and said, "I'm sorry for your loss."

It didn't make any sense. They didn't know me, and many of them didn't even know her. Few of the ones that did had even so much as talked to her in years.
Would you believe there are people who can feel sorry for your loss even if they are acquaintances at best? I don't know you, yet I'm sorry you had such a brutal experience. I do know what it's like to suddenly lose somebody who is young and healthy.

Now what would drive me bonkers would be people saying things like "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" or "Maybe some good will come of this" and let's not forget "God doesn't close one window without opening another." There are plenty of asinine things to say, but "I'm sorry for your loss" can be meant entirely sincerely even if said to virtual strangers.
 
Mistaken.

Anything else?
She mistakenly thought he put his hand on her butt? Or she mistakenly thought he had sexual intent? The former qualifies as delusion, the latter means he inadvertently touched her and he should still apologize.

I think the apology he offered is quite appropriate, too. Especially given how fast people will drop the "inadvertent" part as soon as the statement is made and act like the secret, devious intention has been revealed.

If you don't strenuously qualify your remarks, people take all kinds of idiotic interpretations. If you do strenuously qualify your remarks, people say that's evidence you feel guilty.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Yes, this is quite true; just having the accusations out there is damnation enough. I think these "court of public opinion," types of allegations are extremely unfair to people like Franken. But since we can't really stop these kinds of allegations, it forces the accused to make a statement. If you didn't do something, then just say you didn't do it. If you did it by mistake, then apologize for your carelessness. If you did it on purpose, then take your lumps.

Ariana Huffington seems to have a theory.

It was on purpose, not sexual, and done to be funny.
I can see an argument for a staged photo shoot (like he and Huffington posed for) where sexual touching is consented to and done to humorous effect. But that argument doesn't fly when a stranger comes up to him for a photo and he rests his hand on her butt. That is sexual and not at all funny.
 
Which is exactly the way I felt over forty years ago when total strangers came up to me at my mother's funeral and said, "I'm sorry for your loss."

It didn't make any sense. They didn't know me, and many of them didn't even know her. Few of the ones that did had even so much as talked to her in years.

(At the time I was not in a good state of mind. I had been working out of state when she was killed. My mother was relatively young (42), and her death (from a brutal car accident) entirely unexpected.

Total strangers saying insanely nonsensical thing to me pissed me off to the point of near rage. I had to remove myself from the ceremony, and I've never been able to bring myself to go to another one since then.)

Saying "I'm sorry about how you feel." is exactly the same thing. The same figure of speech. (Not necessarily a cliche.)

No, it isn't "I'm sorry I made you feel that way.", which still isn't "I'm sorry I did that to you".

Nonetheless, as a figure of speech those first usages are identical, and as you yourself point out, quite commonly accepted for what they intend, which is an expression of sympathy.

You know, I totally understand your feelings as I had similar feelings when my mother passed away. The truth is there was absolutely nothing anyone could say to me that would make me feel better in the slightest.

But that doesn't mean they weren't sincere. I truly am sorry for total stranger's loss of a loved one knowing how my mother's passing devastated me.
 
If Franken says, that didn't happen, he is accusing the accusers.
Well, what's wrong with that? The accusers are saying he did something wrong. If he didn't do it, then what's the problem with saying they are doing something wrong?

Do none of you understand chivalry?
Chivalry? That's a good one. . . That photo with Tweeden sure was chivalrous! "I feel badly that Ms. Menz came away from our interaction feeling disrespected," what does that even mean? Chivalry? Pffft.

Where's your link to the FB entry and the, "oh my God, what's happening?" is stupid. What did she think, he was going to grab a boob next? Her husband was right there, it was a photo op requested by the couple.
She isn't allowed to feel violated -Oh my God, what's happening- by the butt grab? That her husband would have stopped further, more obvious violations means that she should be ok with the initial one? And requesting a photo grants permission for cuppin' cheek?

It was a couple second long photo, it's being blown way out of proportion.
Butt grabs of less than 5 seconds are not a problem?
 
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She mistakenly thought he put his hand on her butt? Or she mistakenly thought he had sexual intent? The former qualifies as delusion, the latter means he inadvertently touched her and he should still apologize.

There are different evocations to me between "mistaken" and "delusional." Delusional has a much more pejorative edge that I do not endorse.

"Mistakenly thought he had sexual intent" is more on point. This is the "unprovable secret thoughts" that can never be truly settled, especially for events decades past.

I just don't remotely accept any person (myself included) to be perfect recording and playback instruments (exhaustive research supports this).

Yes, this is quite true; just having the accusations out there is damnation enough. I think these "court of public opinion," types of allegations are extremely unfair to people like Franken. But since we can't really stop these kinds of allegations, it forces the accused to make a statement. If you didn't do something, then just say you didn't do it. If you did it by mistake, then apologize for your carelessness. If you did it on purpose, then take your lumps.

Much as is happening as we circle around and around in this thread again, it's an endless parade of "but what if this phrasing doesn't match that scenario" dog-chasing-tail waste of time.

He gave a more-or-less "didn't think that was what was happening at all, but sorry for the upset I caused" apology.

Quibbling over the wording choices so exactingly, even to a neurotic crank like me who grates at language abuses, well, it reminds me of people I cut out of my life eventually because they would never, flat out ceaselessly ever, be satisfied or approving of me or they way I said something or performed a task, etc. (and most other people around them, too).

I can see an argument for a staged photo shoot (like he and Huffington posed for) where sexual touching is consented to and done to humorous effect. But that argument doesn't fly when a stranger comes up to him for a photo and he rests his hand on her butt. That is sexual and not at all funny.

Oh lord, do you not know convention atmosphere?

Male celebrities face lines of women playing up the arm candy role. Middle aged and mature women are often quite gropey, themselves (remember, after 30-ish, men go down but women go up, up, up). Or they will direct the celebrities hands into places. Yes, right in front of their husbands, it's playful taunting. "Better make sure you keep me happy, I'm on a TV star's arm, I could just trade up..."

Conventions, promo events, trade shows, it's not a matter of how much sexual innuendo and suggestive revelry is happening, that's pretty much what those events are. The rest is like...suggested themes. Drop by a ComiCon some time :9.

Like I've said before. This issue can't be resolved by demands for male behavior to change in a vacuum.

There's also cultural perspectives. I wonder if any French people look at this issue (Franken, specifically) and are just flat out confused what the issue even is.

ETA: "Convention atmosphere" is not to be taken as a "locker room talk" attempt to excuse Franken. It goes to the "context" argument that a convention is totally not a place to attempt satirical sexual humor (for a comedian who's repertoire in that regard was all the more humorous for how far off the "ideal male sex symbol" he is). As someone who has to stop every 10 feet to acknowledge people wanting their time, you'd probably just start to make best guesses based on very hastily read comfort/anxiety cues. If you meet tens of thousands of people, chances are you made a few mistaken reads along the way.

So you say sorry and hope they aren't in a vengeful mood and that some other calamity ensues more suiting to the constant appetite for salaciousness we all have.
 
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If Franken says, that didn't happen, he is accusing the accusers.

Do none of you understand chivalry?

Where's your link to the FB entry and the, "oh my God, what's happening?" is stupid. What did she think, he was going to grab a boob next? Her husband was right there, it was a photo op requested by the couple.

It was a couple second long photo, it's being blown way out of proportion.

Do none of you understand chivalry?

In a thread where Franken groped at least four women and tongue boxed the **** out of a woman’s tonsils.

:dl:
 
Better than you, apparently, and I'm rather surprised that you brought it up. The overwhelming body of the medieval codes of chivalry were rules of warfare. The parts that dealt with women were paternalistic and possessive, if not outright infantilizing. They were profoundly sexist and deserve to be left on the scrap heap of history.
Yeah well that's one interpretation.

Being a gentleman is the other.
noun, plural chivalries for 6.
1. the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.
2. the rules and customs of medieval knighthood.
3. the medieval system or institution of knighthood.
4. a group of knights.
5. gallant warriors or gentlemen: fair ladies and noble chivalry.
6. Archaic. a chivalrous act; gallant deed.
 
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She mistakenly thought he put his hand on her butt?
No.
Or she mistakenly thought he had sexual intent?
Yes.

The former qualifies as delusion, the latter means he inadvertently touched her and he should still apologize.
OMG, his hand might have gone onto a forbidden zone. :rolleyes:

Breasts, vagina or mons pubis, sure. But your backside for a couple second long photo?

He did apologize and you are asserting that means it was sexual.

... But that argument doesn't fly when a stranger comes up to him for a photo and he rests his hand on her butt. That is sexual and not at all funny.
Or it was a meaningless hand placement and you are overreacting.
 
Would you believe there are people who can feel sorry for your loss even if they are acquaintances at best?

<snip>


Sure. As I said in that post, at the time I was not in a good state of mind.

My point was not that I didn't believe them. It was that the phrase, when parsed logically, didn't make any sense. Just as xjx388 was claiming about the same phrase used elsewhere. I was offering an example of just that response in a situation where it is commonly used.

I wasn't in a frame of mind to accept nuances or conventions. The incongruity almost literally drove me crazy, at least for a brief period of time.

When not so upset I have no problem understanding the convention, that it can be an expression of empathy, but I don't understand accepting it for some things and not others.

You'll have to take that nuance up with xjx388.
 
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Uhhhhh.......wut?

There is only one reality. He either did something inappropriate or he did not. He doesn't have to apologize for other people's perceptions of reality.

Woman: xjx388 raped me!

xjx388: I don't recall this incident but we have to listen to women when they come forward and we must respect their experiences. I just feel horrible that this woman's reality includes me raping her and I apologize for inadvertently helping create this reality.

Police: Sir, we have a few questions for you . . .
Actually, when it comes to judging sexual encounters and accusations, it isn't always strictly black-and-white(it often is, but not always), and so hopefully, the police has a few questions for the accuser, too.

Franken may (may! Not saying he does; I am raising a possibility) find himself between a rock and a hard place with his conviction that people complaining about sexual assault must be heard and respected: what if, in his honest assessment, the accusation is false or overblown? Then he can't simply deny, essentially calling her a liar, on account of his principle, but he also can't apologize for what he thinks he didn't do.
 
Wow. Most here would have absolutely no problem accepting any of these accounts if it was President Trump. Hypocrisy unbound.
 

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