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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Reality Check said:
And we get:
29 November 2017: The idiocy of "Follow the lines" as instructions!
How is a "line" different from an artefact in Google Earth? How is a "line" different from an undersea ridge in Google Earth? What insane delusion links gardens with "lines" that cross the sea floor?

From where? To where?
Start at the top of the mid-Atlantic ridge which is many kilometers below the sea surface. Follow the "lines". End up at the bottom of the ridge :jaw-dropp!
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I understand.
 
Reality Check said:
No one is disputing that pre-Columbian agriculture existed :eye-poppi. Or that many different cultures throughout history have planted vegetables in grids, i.e. "grid gardens". That includes my local market gardeners!

ETA: Where your claim goes off the rails is when you state that rectangular fields with no grid are "grid gardens" or that you see them on the sea floor under kilometers of water, e.g. a still unknown location near to Hawaii.
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Stop telling lies and misrepresenting my argument.
 
carlitos said:
“Pre-Columbian”

Because “500 years” doesn’t sound like a long time in a discussion about 12,000 year-old society.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Since, I have never investigated any of these sites, I have yet to date them. Others have dated sites similar to mine, and there are links available to those results. Neither them nor I have issued a 12,000 year age requirement on these findings.

Please stop mischaracterizing my argument.
 
King of the Americas said:
Since, I have never investigated any of these sites, I have yet to date them. Others have dated sites similar to mine, and there are links available to those results. Neither them nor I have issued a 12,000 year age requirement on these findings.

Please stop mischaracterizing my argument.
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First of all, the topic of this thread is whether or not there is evidence for an advanced 12000 year old culture, so if you have been arguing for something entirely different on the last few pages of the thread, that was off topic.

Secondly, you have claimed that [all the various things you came up with] were evidence for an advanced global culture that has heretofore been undiscovered.
That means this culture must predate all the cultures we do know about, because none of them were part of a global network of highly advanced agriculturalists with a population that would require them to till all the arable land you claim they used, nor did they write about them, nor have we found any archaeological remains of this mysterious culture. So the collapse of their society must have taken place many millennia BCE.

Thirdly, you claimed that Göbekli Tepe was evidence for your claims, and that is about 12000 years old. So you yourself did make that connection.

However, you've also tried to argue that buildings from the 16th century and trees from the 1960's were evidence for your secret culture, so I'm not surprised that your 'theory' turns out to be so incoherent that these simple facts slipped your mind.
 
Porpoise of Life said:
You'd have to make an argument first.
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"Ignorance is bliss."

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That said, I am willing to admit my thesis needs some work. This is my amended version:

"Should similarly sized and shaped grid gardens, in sparsely populated remote areas, be interpreted as evidence of advanced agriculture and global interconnectivity?"

I need to more specifically define "similarly sized and shaped grid gardens," as I have been too liberal in assigning this 'similarity.' I also need to add "sparsely populated remote areas," because one of the elements I'm discussing is how poorly the re-occupations occur. It is the grid gardens' size relative to existing and recent historical populations that proves someone else did it.

Now, this is where I am pained greatly...what size square length or number of plants should represent a connectivity? 144, 72, or some other 'magical number' or several numbers? Length doesn't work, because different plants appear in different locations, and they all have different canopies, so square orchards end up different sizes. I am considering narrowing it down to these rectangles, so long as they appear in a grid:

How do I go about defining sparsely populated and remote?
 

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Porpoise of Life said:
First of all, the topic of this thread is whether or not there is evidence for an advanced 12000 year old culture, so if you have been arguing for something entirely different on the last few pages of the thread, that was off topic.

Secondly, you have claimed that [all the various things you came up with] were evidence for an advanced global culture that has heretofore been undiscovered.
That means this culture must predate all the cultures we do know about, because none of them were part of a global network of highly advanced agriculturalists with a population that would require them to till all the arable land you claim they used, nor did they write about them, nor have we found any archaeological remains of this mysterious culture. So the collapse of their society must have taken place many millennia BCE.

Thirdly, you claimed that Göbekli Tepe was evidence for your claims, and that is about 12000 years old. So you yourself did make that connection.

However, you've also tried to argue that buildings from the 16th century and trees from the 1960's were evidence for your secret culture, so I'm not surprised that your 'theory' turns out to be so incoherent that these simple facts slipped your mind.
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I posted this picture:

It features one of the biggest grid gardens in the world. I have not seen it dated yet. If these gardens date to 12,000, then so be it, as with the pictures I've posted of underwater grids.
 

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Craig B said:
What are you arguing here? It is well known that horticulture in the Americas predates Columbus. Nobody has ever doubted that. Grids are a simple way of dividing tracts of land into smaller pieces. So a claim that they predate Columbus is of no significance.
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I am arguing that the size of these grid gardens represents an 'advanced' nature. These were gardens for your family. They are industrial-sized agricultural plots that even today are not fully employed. They are 888x222 ft, here:
 

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Captain_Swoop said:
What are the locations of these pictures? They mean nothing without context.
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The first is one mile south of GT.

The ocean ones are near the second island of Hawaii...I think.

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ETA:

Hmmmm...what if 'context' mattered, least? I mean, if the grid is 'the same,' or rather has the dimensions- 888x222 ft (each) can I claim connectivity regardless of location? AND THEN claim that the location(s) prove 'advanced global connectivity'?
 
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King of the Americas said:
*sigh*

Were the native societies (in central america) at full strength when the europeans arrived, or were many of the cities abandon and sparsely populated?
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*Sigh* what does that have to do with whether or not there was an advanced society 12000 years before? You're diverting into irrelevance again.

But since you ask ... I referred to TenochtitlanWP at the time of the European invasion. Was it abandoned or sparsely populated?
Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés arrived in Tenochtitlan on November 8, 1519. With an estimated population between 200,000 and 300,000, many scholars believe Tenochtitlan to have been among the largest cities in the world at that time.

Compared to the cities of Europe, only Paris, Venice and Constantinople might have rivaled it. It was five times the size of the London of Henry VIII. In a letter to the Spanish king, Cortés wrote that Tenochtitlan was as large as Seville or Córdoba. Cortes' men were in awe at the sight of the splendid city and many wondered if they were dreaming.​
Why am I having to tell you this, by the way? It is well known, and the info sources can be found in a few seconds of googling.
 
Yes, all these huge well kept farms are evidence of a network of technologically advanced cultures.
Ours.

If you want to argue that the fields in your pictures predate written history you'll need to provide a lot more evidence than just some Google Maps screenshots.
 
As Captain Swoop says, without the coordinates those photos are meaningless, because they could be anything. Well, apart from the one you have called "abandonedplantation", which is clearly not abandoned.
 
Porpoise of Life said:
Yes, all these huge well kept farms are evidence of a network of technologically advanced cultures.
Ours.

If you want to argue that the fields in your pictures predate written history you'll need to provide a lot more evidence than just some Google Maps screenshots.
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"Ours"...?

How? I can post such grids in remote locations, entirely abandon. They have belonged to no one for years, and what about the ones under water??

And what of the ones in places documented to be older than Columbus' arrival???

That said, I am happy to her you FINALLY admit these things represent an 'advanced' work.
 
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