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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Roboramma said:
By the way, regarding the actual topic of this thread, I've been reading Regenesis by George Church (the book is about biotechnology I guess), and in it he mentions:

"The tetraploid wheat hybrids were adopted by humans possibly as early as 17,000 BCE (based on carbon-14 isotopic dating), in what is now southern Turkey (based on DNA studies), and then spread as far as Egypt to feed the pharonic dynasties."

The date of 17,000 BCE is earlier than I'd heard of previously but is in line with the possibility that the builders of GT were a stone age agricultural society.

As I said earlier in the thread I don't think that's entirely ruled out, and it's much more interesting to me than the ridiculous ideas that GT was part of a global civilization that had developed nuclear weapons and space travel.

I think the date of 17,000 BCE is a very speculative one as actual agriculture instead of the gathering of grains and is probably the same one mentioned in this wikipedia article:


But anyway I don't think we can entirely rule out the idea that there were relatively small scale agricultural societies at the time of GT. It's close enough to the origins of agriculture that it could be an early example. At that stage I'd guess that there wouldn't have been too much of an effect of artificial selection yet either so it might be hard to tell the difference between wild and cultivated grains. It's even possible that it was an early experiment that ended in the collapse of that society and a reversion of hunter-gatherer lifestyles.
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What would qualify as large scale advanced agriculture?
 
So, I claimed I found evidence of a global agricultural society. I combed the world finding evidence everywhere I looked. But the places I founder too remote to visit and or test.

However, I did claim they were everywhere...so I searched my home county in Texas.

I found them here too!

I'm going out to visit a site today.
 

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King of the Americas said:
Exactly what I expected...'locked gates'...

That said, I did visit Hagerman's Wildlife Refuge, wherein I saw this:
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I believe it is a hydroponic terraced garden. There are holding tanks atop the local hills and a canal system that still carries water.

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If I were to dig into one of these terraces, can the organic matter be dated at the bottom, or does there need to be a barrier of some kind to protect lower levels from recent contamination?
 
Alright...I just wrote an e-mail to the authors of that paper and suggested we collaborate on another piece, more macro in approach than their previous paper.
 
John Jones said:
Well there you go. Evidence of a global culture 12,000 years old. QED.
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ACTUALLY...

I never dated these sites, as I had neither the means nor ability to travel to nor analyze what I found.

"The newly excavated residential site Sable Blanc dates 708–938 Cal y B.P."

I had to look that up to understand what that meant.

"The Arauquinoid tradition originated in the Middle Orinoco around 1,500 y B.P., reached western coastal Suriname around 1,300 y B.P., and then spread eastward to near present-day Cayenne. In French Guiana, the Barbakoeba and Thémire cultures flourished between ca. 1,000 and 800 y B.P. and 800 and 500 y B.P."
 
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King of the Americas said:
These grid-gardens are Pre-Columbian.

Now kneel before a superior researcher!
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Natives of the Amazon Basin practiced horticulture priorto 1500 CE? I would be impressed enough to kneel perhaps, if you proved that they didn't. For it is well known. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lost-amazon-cities/
But, ultimately, these cities died; most likely a victim of the diseases brought by European explorers in the early 16th century, according to Heckenberger. Two thirds or more of the original human inhabitants of Brazil are believed to have been killed by such disease, and the forest quickly swallowed the cities they left behind.​
They didn't plant the rainforest; they planted crops within it, and when they died, the forest overwhelmed their homes and fields.

Now, note that they are thought to have succumbed to new diseases brought from Europe. That means that they had not in pre-Colombian times been exposed to contact with European populations. So no advanced world wide civilisation is indicated by these events. Quite the contrary.
 
Craig B said:
Now, note that they are thought to have succumbed to new diseases brought from Europe. That means that they had not in pre-Colombian times been exposed to contact with European populations. So no advanced world wide civilisation is indicated by these events. Quite the contrary.
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This is quite a fatal nail in the coffin of an ancient world wide civilisation.
 
King of the Americas said:
ACTUALLY...

I never dated these sites, as I had neither the means nor ability to travel to nor analyze what I found.

"The newly excavated residential site Sable Blanc dates 708–938 Cal y B.P."

I had to look that up to understand what that meant.

"The Arauquinoid tradition originated in the Middle Orinoco around 1,500 y B.P., reached western coastal Suriname around 1,300 y B.P., and then spread eastward to near present-day Cayenne. In French Guiana, the Barbakoeba and Thémire cultures flourished between ca. 1,000 and 800 y B.P. and 800 and 500 y B.P."
Click to expand...

I already knew what calibrated carbon dates Before Present meant. I've actually done carbon dating in the past.

There's nothing in those pages that seems to support your wildly fluctuating claims.
 
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