Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

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Unfortunately this tendency to analyze victims and accused in terms of them acting or speaking "correctly" is a very common one. People look for "signs" in terms of demeanor or speech to indicate whether or not someone is telling the truth or is lying / guilty. Thus if someone is not "acting innocent" they are a suspect. Sadly the fact is the behavior of people is a poor guide as to whether or not someone is innocent or guilty of anything.

For example if someone is all fidgety and nervous when questioned by the police that may indicate nothing more than a bad case of nerves and not guilt at all.

As for speaking correctly some of the guilters have relied on the "science" of Statement Analysis, a pseudoscience based on the notion, quite unproven, that there is a "correct" "proper" way that truly innocent people will talk about the crime they are a accused of being involved in and that all guilty people will talk differently from an innocent person and of course Statement Analysis is a near infallible guide to guilt and innocence.

I have read Statement Analysis analysis which "proves" that Amanda Knox was guilty of a crime, it of course ignores the mountain of evidence that indicates she almost certainly had nothing to do with it.

But then Statement Analysis makes people feel they have a built in lie detector, so of course why bother with actual evidence.

I agree that statement analysis is a pseudoscience. Much like interpreting body language, it is subject to conscious or subconscious bias and differing skill levels. Two "experts" analyzing the same thing will commonly arrive at conflicting conclusions.
 
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The PGP have to believe the police would never, ever lie about their actions or to protect themselves. They would never, ever lie about smacking Amanda, withholding water, food or bathroom breaks, feeding her leading questions, threatening her with 30 years in prison, lying to her, denying her a lawyer or not recording the interrogation. Nope. Not ever.

If she really was tortured for 54 hours, as she keeps claiming to this very day, and there were changing 'tag teams of twelve' to 'interrogate' her, then why did she not report it to her attorney and the American Embassy representative who visited her regularly?

Under Italian law Dalla Vedova had a duty and obligation to report the police abuse.

The ECHR claim is not moving along because their Directions clearly state that an applicant must prove they have exhausted all internal forms of complaint first (apart from Art 3: torture).

If she was tortured as claimed, where is the medical report describing the trauma?
 
This is a very interesting article about police not believing women who report being assaulted. Not only did the police, without evidence, decide the women were lying, but they charged the women with the crime of making a false report. One young victim named Marie, age 18, reported a man broke into her apartment and raped her.



Sound familiar? Amanda Knox and Raffaele didn't "act" how the police thought they should act on Nov. 2 or during interrogations, etc. They relied on their "gut feelings". I can't tell you how many times I've read PGP declaring that they could see guilt in Amanda's eyes or declared her body language indicated she was lying.



Studies show that police are no better at discerning deception than anyone else, but tend to believe they are. And once they decide a person is lying, that person becomes the suspect in their eyes. As the article states:



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/24/...assault-victims-lying.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

It's not so much believing or disbelieving. The police have to consider whether the case will stand up in court. With often only the victim's word against the accused, the conviction rate for rape remains relatively low.

For a case to be accepted as fit for trial, the police do actually have to show 'reasonable grounds of success' (US = 'probable cause'). This is one reason Van Breda didn't go to trial for almost three years, as police struggled to find evidence it was likely Van Breda what dunnit. A strong suspicion is not enough for a court of law.

One minute the PIP are claiming Amanda was terribly respectably middle class and 'on the dean's list', and the next minute they claim she was decidedly 'dodgy' with a criminal demeanour, which gave the cops an understandable 'gut feeling' about her.

Which is it to be? Can't have it both ways.
 
Unfortunately this tendency to analyze victims and accused in terms of them acting or speaking "correctly" is a very common one. People look for "signs" in terms of demeanor or speech to indicate whether or not someone is telling the truth or is lying / guilty. Thus if someone is not "acting innocent" they are a suspect. Sadly the fact is the behavior of people is a poor guide as to whether or not someone is innocent or guilty of anything.

For example if someone is all fidgety and nervous when questioned by the police that may indicate nothing more than a bad case of nerves and not guilt at all.

As for speaking correctly some of the guilters have relied on the "science" of Statement Analysis, a pseudoscience based on the notion, quite unproven, that there is a "correct" "proper" way that truly innocent people will talk about the crime they are a accused of being involved in and that all guilty people will talk differently from an innocent person and of course Statement Analysis is a near infallible guide to guilt and innocence.

I have read Statement Analysis analysis which "proves" that Amanda Knox was guilty of a crime, it of course ignores the mountain of evidence that indicates she almost certainly had nothing to do with it.

But then Statement Analysis makes people feel they have a built in lie detector, so of course why bother with actual evidence.

Body language is amazingly accurate and officials are right to pay attention to it.

For example, watch the early tv interviews with Ian Huntley, posing as 'just the humble school caretaker', before he became a suspect and arrested, charged and convicted of the murder of two little girls. He hides his hands behind his back. He frowns in faux concern, he fixes his eyes on the interviewer feigning frankness.

I caught a colleague red-handedly embezzling the company we worked for, and when he realised I knew, it was an astonishing sight as suddenly he began to tremble and sweat poured down his forehead.

These are exactly the signs customs officers and border staff are trained to look out for.

Of course, body language wouldn't be evidence in a court of law, but you'll find the best detectives are those with an ability to judge a person's character accurately, often within minutes. This will be based on body language, including voice, and a highly refined 'BS detector'.

Whilst body language can be faked, things like perspiration, tics and trembling, we have no control over.
 
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I agree that statement analysis is a pseudoscience. Much like interpreting body language, it is subject to conscious or subconscious bias and differing skill levels. Two "experts" analyzing the same thing will commonly arrive at conflicting conclusions.

It is not a 'pseudo science' as any one who works in advertising and PR will know. I have taken a 'content analysis' module as part of my psychology degree and it soon became clear how advertisers succeed in the art of persuasion, in why we should buy their product, and their clever techniques of imprinting their - often subliminal - messages onto our subconscious.

The reason people will fork out more for a 'brand name' (see Naomi Klein's Logo for example), shows the science of persuasion works.

Thus, nowadays whenever anyone with funds is accused of a serious crime, they will invariably - like Amanda Knox - spend more on the PR agent than the lawyer.

This raises the ethical question: should advertisers be allowed to determine the outcome of a trial, in exchange for money?
 
No PIP has ever claimed this.

The fantasy continues. After a six-month hiatus, the canard of "statement" analysis is back.

Mignini gets humiliated in his defamation claim against Sollecito and Gumbel, Nick van der Leek is humiliated at multiple places.... and Vixen simply waits a while, then starts again on another round of long since discredited stuff.
 
If she really was tortured for 54 hours, as she keeps claiming to this very day, and there were changing 'tag teams of twelve' to 'interrogate' her, then why did she not report it to her attorney and the American Embassy representative who visited her regularly?

Under Italian law Dalla Vedova had a duty and obligation to report the police abuse.

The ECHR claim is not moving along because their Directions clearly state that an applicant must prove they have exhausted all internal forms of complaint first (apart from Art 3: torture).

If she was tortured as claimed, where is the medical report describing the trauma?

Amazingly, but not unsurprisingly, inaccurate and hyperbolic claims.

Amanda has never, ever claimed she was "tortured for 54 hours". What she has said is that she was smacked on the back of the head 3 times during the Nov.5/6 interrogation. It is only during that particular interrogation that she claimed verbal and physical abuse. But why let facts get in the way?

Amanda also never claimed there were "tag teams of twelve" interrogating her. Twelve officers were scheduled for the night of Nov.5/6 (some brought in from Rome)
, but they were divided into interrogating Amanda and Raff. Amanda only says there were sometimes several in the room at the same time and explicitly mentions Ficarra, the "silver haired" officer and a few others. The fact that SEVEN police officer sued her for defamation (and lost) is evidence that there were seven interrogating her that night.

Amanda did report being hit. It's in her memorial of Nov. 6 and she also told the prison doctor and nurse who examined her upon her arrest. Please cite evidence of your claim that "Under Italian law Dalla Vedova had a duty and obligation to report the police abuse".

Your claim that the ECHR case is not moving along is belied by the facts that have been reported here on the case status. This is just another example of you pulling a "fact" right out of thin air (and elsewhere).

There is no medical report of torture because she has never claimed she was "tortured" physically. Since when do three hand slaps to the back of the head result in physical damage? Again, this is just another classic example of your need to grossly exaggerate in an effort to support your position. And it fails miserably.
 
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It's not so much believing or disbelieving. The police have to consider whether the case will stand up in court. With often only the victim's word against the accused, the conviction rate for rape remains relatively low.

For a case to be accepted as fit for trial, the police do actually have to show 'reasonable grounds of success' (US = 'probable cause'). This is one reason Van Breda didn't go to trial for almost three years, as police struggled to find evidence it was likely Van Breda what dunnit. A strong suspicion is not enough for a court of law.

One minute the PIP are claiming Amanda was terribly respectably middle class and 'on the dean's list', and the next minute they claim she was decidedly 'dodgy' with a criminal demeanour, which gave the cops an understandable 'gut feeling' about her.

Which is it to be? Can't have it both ways.

You're missing the point. The article was never about the police having enough evidence to go to trial. It was about the police deciding that a person was lying about being sexually assaulted. Not only making that decision themselves, but then filing charges against the victim for making a false police report. Victims who were later proved to have been telling the truth. Try reading it again.

You're right about one thing; you can't have it both ways. Which is why I've never seen any PIP claim Amanda "was decidedly 'dodgy' with a criminal demeanour, which gave the cops an understandable 'gut feeling' about her".

"Gut feelings" are just that: feelings. And feelings are just as often wrong as they are right.
 
It is not a 'pseudo science' as any one who works in advertising and PR will know. I have taken a 'content analysis' module as part of my psychology degree and it soon became clear how advertisers succeed in the art of persuasion, in why we should buy their product, and their clever techniques of imprinting their - often subliminal - messages onto our subconscious.

The reason people will fork out more for a 'brand name' (see Naomi Klein's Logo for example), shows the science of persuasion works.

Thus, nowadays whenever anyone with funds is accused of a serious crime, they will invariably - like Amanda Knox - spend more on the PR agent than the lawyer.

This raises the ethical question: should advertisers be allowed to determine the outcome of a trial, in exchange for money?

Statement analysis is not the same thing as the art of persuasion. Nor does it have anything to do with advertising. Thus, your post is entirely irrelevant.

Statement analysis, also called investigative discourse analysis and scientific content analysis (SCAN), is a technique for analyzing the words people use to try to determine if what they said is accurate.

Nice try with that last "question", but it was just too glaringly obvious.
 
Unfortunately this tendency to analyze victims and accused in terms of them acting or speaking "correctly" is a very common one. People look for "signs" in terms of demeanor or speech to indicate whether or not someone is telling the truth or is lying / guilty. Thus if someone is not "acting innocent" they are a suspect. Sadly the fact is the behavior of people is a poor guide as to whether or not someone is innocent or guilty of anything.

For example if someone is all fidgety and nervous when questioned by the police that may indicate nothing more than a bad case of nerves and not guilt at all.

As for speaking correctly some of the guilters have relied on the "science" of Statement Analysis, a pseudoscience based on the notion, quite unproven, that there is a "correct" "proper" way that truly innocent people will talk about the crime they are a accused of being involved in and that all guilty people will talk differently from an innocent person and of course Statement Analysis is a near infallible guide to guilt and innocence.

I have read Statement Analysis analysis which "proves" that Amanda Knox was guilty of a crime, it of course ignores the mountain of evidence that indicates she almost certainly had nothing to do with it.

But then Statement Analysis makes people feel they have a built in lie detector, so of course why bother with actual evidence.

Embolded and enreddened by me for reasons that are obvious. Most people could not tell whether a person is lying or anything else of that type except for the most blatant (anger, fear, hate)..... If I am being tried for something I know I did not do, hate will be my clear appearance.
 
It is not a 'pseudo science' as any one who works in advertising and PR will know. I have taken a 'content analysis' module as part of my psychology degree and it soon became clear how advertisers succeed in the art of persuasion, in why we should buy their product, and their clever techniques of imprinting their - often subliminal - messages onto our subconscious.

The reason people will fork out more for a 'brand name' (see Naomi Klein's Logo for example), shows the science of persuasion works.

Thus, nowadays whenever anyone with funds is accused of a serious crime, they will invariably - like Amanda Knox - spend more on the PR agent than the lawyer.

This raises the ethical question: should advertisers be allowed to determine the outcome of a trial, in exchange for money?

After Amanda was arrested, her family was bombarded by requests for interviews and the Knox family found themselves in a situation they didn’t know how to deal with. The PR firm was hired to deal with media interviews. PGP makes the ridiculous claims a small PR firm was able to influence trials in a foreign country. In view of the gross stupidity I have seen from PGP, this is exactly the kind of ludicrous claim I have come to expect from them.

There is one aspect PGP are strangely silent about is the highly effective PR machine the prosecution had. The media provided effective PR for the prosecution in numerous ways. As can be seen from the links below the prosecution carried out corruption and misconduct on a massive scale and numerous abuses were committed by the prosecution. To the best of the knowledge the mainstream media have never reported on the abuses carried out by the prosecution. To know about the corruption carried out by the prosecution you have to go on this forum and sites such as Injustice in Perugia . By not reporting the prosecution’s corruption, this was of enormous benefit to the prosecution. As can be seen from the links below, the prosecution used the media to spread falsehoods such as the purchase of bleach receipts, the washing machine running, showering in a bloody bathroom and the Harry Potter books. These lies were very damaging to Amanda and Raffaele and these lies could have influenced jurors. PGP such as Vixen constantly bang on about Amanda and Raffaele telling umpteen lies but defend corrupt prosecutors who released umpteen lies to the media and PGP had no problem when corrupt prosecutors spread lies about Amanda and Raffaele. Another example of how PGP show disgusting hypocrisy when they attack Amanda and Raffaele for lying.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-perjury-corruption/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/
https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com...old-about-amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11071314#post11071314

The link below show how the media spread lies about Amanda and Raffaele and how hostile the media coverage was to Amanda and Raffaele. These lies were of immense benefit to the prosecutors and could have prejudiced courts. PGP such as Vixen constantly bang on about Amanda and Raffaele telling umpteen lies but had no problem when the media told umpteen lies about Amanda and Raffaele. Another example of how PGP show disgusting hypocrisy when they attack Amanda and Raffaele for lying.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-media-lies/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/media.html

On this forum Vixen currently defends corrupt prosecutors and Machiavelli has done the same in the past which provided PR for the prosecution. The TJMK and PMF hate sites have slavishly defended corrupt prosecutors which means that there are two sites which provide PR for the prosecution.

Vixen and other PGP attack Amanda for using a PR firm but PGP have no problem with corrupt prosecutors using PR in their favour and PR working against Amanda and Raffaele. Another example of industrial scale hypocrisy by PGP.

Vixen claims Amanda’s family spent more on the PR firm than lawyers. Can Vixen provide evidence to support and provide exact figures for the money spent on the PR firm and lawyers or is this yet another falsehood.
 
I agree that statement analysis is a pseudoscience. Much like interpreting body language, it is subject to conscious or subconscious bias and differing skill levels. Two "experts" analyzing the same thing will commonly arrive at conflicting conclusions.
Another reason I do not watch the TV show Bull (****)!!!!!...........
 
You're missing the point. The article was never about the police having enough evidence to go to trial. It was about the police deciding that a person was lying about being sexually assaulted. Not only making that decision themselves, but then filing charges against the victim for making a false police report. Victims who were later proved to have been telling the truth. Try reading it again.

You're right about one thing; you can't have it both ways. Which is why I've never seen any PIP claim Amanda "was decidedly 'dodgy' with a criminal demeanour, which gave the cops an understandable 'gut feeling' about her".

"Gut feelings" are just that: feelings. And feelings are just as often wrong as they are right.

Didn't you say the cops went after Amanda because they were relying on their 'gut instincts'?

In other words, she must have been giving off 'criminal' vibes, rather than the sweet American Pie one you keep trying to push in your other argument as to why she could not have possibly killed her room mate.
 
Didn't you say the cops went after Amanda because they were relying on their 'gut instincts'?

In other words, she must have been giving off 'criminal' vibes, rather than the sweet American Pie one you keep trying to push in your other argument as to why she could not have possibly killed her room mate.

What "criminal vides" was Giuliano Mignini giving off which caused him to be charged with abuse of office? What "unethical vibes" was Nick van der Leek giving off which caused Peter Quennell to suspect that he was a plagiarist?
 
Statement analysis is not the same thing as the art of persuasion. Nor does it have anything to do with advertising. Thus, your post is entirely irrelevant.



Nice try with that last "question", but it was just too glaringly obvious.

Think about it. Advertising, or the 'art of persuasion' is all about telling lies, or at least 'overcoming people's resistance'.

If the plain brown caremelised liquid known as 'coca-cola' was sold in a plain tin, there is no way it would cost >£1 a tin, nor would Coca-Cola have a larger profit that the GDP of the entire state of Mexico.

Extrapolate this into criminal law. Imagine there has been a crime committed. You are interviewed by the police.

If you are innocent, you just tell the truth. If guilty, you have to come up with an 'innocent' script. This involves acting. You have to imagine how an innocent person would act in your position, and what they might say.

Thus we saw a situation in the Kercher murder of all of the other room mates and witnesses immediately seeking an attorney. Knox and Sollecito imagined that an innocent person wouldn't do this, so casually pretended they didn't need one and declined to appoint one.

Now, because a guilty person aiming to evade justice has to dream up a pack of lies, in effect, of course statement analysis is useful, as we can pick out contradictions, changes in stories (Raff changed his five times), changes in reported emotions. One minute Knox claims she was frantic with worry about Mez, banging on her door and shouting her name, in her email to the world, yet all witnesses at the scene when the police arrived report she was entirely laid back about the locked door, even going so far as to telling Battistelli the door was often locked.

The problem with lying is that people forget their lies, so when we examine Knox and Sollecito's babblings, and compare their book, tv and film narratives with what they told the police and the courts, we see a fascinating phenomenon of one lie after another and a fake alibi.

Crini explained in his submissions that a fake alibi was a piece of evidence in itself.

Thus, statement analysis is invaluable to courts and this is exactly what barristers are getting at when they cross-examine. They are aiming to highlight contradictions, fabrications and anomalies, which will go into their closing submissions.
 
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Embolded and enreddened by me for reasons that are obvious. Most people could not tell whether a person is lying or anything else of that type except for the most blatant (anger, fear, hate)..... If I am being tried for something I know I did not do, hate will be my clear appearance.

Polygraphs (lie detectors) work, because they measure the rate of perspiration (which we have no control over, although savvy crooks know how to take drugs to suppress this). The sweat arises because lying is stressful. The mositure causes an electronic impulse to register on galvanometer, which can be graphed.

Of course some people are more nervous than others. This is why the pyschologist performing the test will ask a few neutral questions first to discover the individual's baseline. A lie will manifest itself as above the normal baseline, whatever that was.

Psychopaths can often lie without any sweat, and drugs can inhibit a true physiological response, which is why lie detectors are not considered valid evidence on their own. However, for detectives, it can help rule out who is not a suspect. (The WM3 all failed the lie detector on five key questions. One weirdo who insisted he was the killer passed the test despite his fake claims.)
 
That was Bongiorno vexatiously putting in a complaint.

Bongiorno had nothing to do with it. You haven't a clue how much trouble Mignini had got into in his predatory prosecutions/arrests in the Monster of Florence debacle.
 
Bongiorno had nothing to do with it. You haven't a clue how much trouble Mignini had got into in his predatory prosecutions/arrests in the Monster of Florence debacle.

I thought this thread was about the Kercher case and the administrative clerical error of forgetting to put Raff's right to a lawyer (which he had anyway) in writing by his back office staff.
 
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