King of the Americas
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There are NO triangles here...it's all perfectly square rows of trees 45 feet apart.
YES. THAT's a HUGE discrepancy!
Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall
- Thread starter angrysoba
- Start date
There are NO triangles here...it's all perfectly square rows of trees 45 feet apart.
YES. THAT's a HUGE discrepancy!
King of the Americas
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MILLIONS of trees, in the desert, requiring 11 daily waterings...then watering ever 20 days...
Digging holes, plowing rows...
*I've posted the math behind operating a 1965 Case tractor- one square = 30 days, and all of these trees are the same age, across the planting!
You are utterly and completely failing to grasp the enormity of this project...
Actually, 13m is 42.5 feet.
That has to be well within the accuracy of whatever you are using to measure this distance.
Why are CONAF and international organisations lying about planting these trees?
That's what you have failed to answer.
That's what you are failing to grasp has to be the case for your fantasy to be true.
King of the Americas
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Ask them!
Also, ask about their operational costs, who's idea it was, and who was the lead engineer...
Seriously, that's it. No more responses for you!
None of that is a cost estimate. Please feel free to continue following that logic with some numbers and get a cost estimate.
You went a little further with that line of thought but you didn't actually finish that either.
King of the Americas
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And I don't HAVE to estimate the cost to be substantial enough to appear in an annual budget!
I'm not your monkey, do your own work.
Yes you do.
There's nothing that suggests the cost was high enough that it couldn't have been paid for by the usual budget.
If you are asserting otherwise, feel free to give the actual argument rather than just incredulous rantings.
Feel free not to as well, but until you do you won't have actually made an argument.
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
Your claims, your burden of proof. Anything less is crackpottery.
Also, we know that these forest squares are at best 100 years old because we have historical records of when the area was a nitrates extraction area, which had stripped it of almost all its trees in the 19th century.
So not just CONAF and international agencies, but also the records of the people mining there a century beforehand.
It's really the most unbelievable bollocks. So much so that you really can't be serious and are taking the piss.
So not just CONAF and international agencies, but also the records of the people mining there a century beforehand.
It's really the most unbelievable bollocks. So much so that you really can't be serious and are taking the piss.
King of the Americas
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How am I to do that, exactly?
Even the study issued does not provide a cost per unit...
I have not been there, and we have no idea when it was created. Saying how much it actually cost is complete speculation. Building it today might cost 'X' but 50 years ago it could have been 'x+-y' I have no idea.
What we CAN do is say "IF IT WERE built" in say year 1967, we can look into what it might have cost in production efforts, for that year, and look at the budget for that kind of increase...
I've done enough work. My efforts have been just as fruitless as other researchers, here.
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I am trying to grasp the enormity of modern inventing of a non existent project and fooling the world for half a century, with no conceivable motive.
Watering is required in early stages of growth, to achieve higher-than-natural sapling survival. But, as you have been told, more mature trees can subsist on dew and mist, once their roots have reached the water table.
If you want to make use of a rainless place as pasture for sheep and goats, grass is of no value, and tree foliage is required. These trees also produce nutritious fruit and seeds. Some desert trees can sink long roots, to reach any available water, which grass can't do; and these local trees have evolved the ability to absorb mist condensation through their leaves.
That's what this project is for. Desert stock rearing.
Recall that the very name of that region means "tangled forest", and that is what it was until nitrate miners removed the trees to fuel steam engines and cook stoves in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
King of the Americas
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I say- "There's no proof that the Chilean government paid for or built this project. No increase occurs in any of the years it is claimed to have been created."
You say- "Tell me how much it cost to fund the project!"
I say- "I don't know when it truly was created or by who."
You say- "Okay then you're a crackpot."
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O M G
I am done with you!
Please remember the history of the Tarapacá Department. There was a boom in nitrate mining there in the nineteenth century. The area was disputed by Peru and Chile, and finally a very bloody and destructive war erupted in 1879, and lasted for several years. Many battles were fought, and cities were bombarded by warships. The capital of Peru was occupied by Chile, and suffered significant damage.
I don't know when the buildings you show were abandoned. But it is likely that they were given up by Peru in about 1884, when that region changed hands, and that they were not reoccupied by Chileans following the annexation. Or they may be part of a ghost town near an exhausted nitrate mine. But there were plenty of opportunities for buildings to become derelict and dilapidated during the nineteenth century in Tarapacá.
ETA Read this to help you to understand the events of the time.
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Porpoise of Life
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So the fact you haven't been able to find evidence for your statements is evidence for your statements? How dishonest.
What we have is the documents showing us how they did it.
What we have is the documents showing us that the area had been al l but stripped of its trees in the previous century.
Ergo, what this is is a new forest.
What you have is disbelief because...reasons...
If you want to knock our evidence down then you need to do more than demand more evidence from us. We have given evidence, you have given **** all.
What we have is the documents showing us that the area had been al l but stripped of its trees in the previous century.
Ergo, what this is is a new forest.
What you have is disbelief because...reasons...
If you want to knock our evidence down then you need to do more than demand more evidence from us. We have given evidence, you have given **** all.
King of the Americas
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Oh dear god...
No it is exactly the opposite.
I said there is no evidence of the chilean government funding or building this project, AND THERE ISN'T.
YOU are say there IS evidence, and have failed to produce it.
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
I didn't say that. We can now add straw man arguments to your repertoire of logical fallacies.
I'm glad the see you're gradually backing-away from your crackpot claims that this plantation is the handiwork of a lost global civilization millennia old.
Andy_Ross
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That first one is Dalby Forest between Pickering and Scarborough, it extends quite a way up into the Moors.
The second one is the area around Littlebeck, the valley is all natural woodland with plantations to the east and west surrounded by open moorland. All the planting was started in the 50s and has been added to and cropped since then.
Your last one with the obvious avenue running from top to bottom is the parkland and estate at Castle Howard. the avenue is the main drive through the grounds, it's actually a public road.
Most pine plantations are Forestry Comission. It was formed after WW1 to build up a strategic reserve of timber so their oldest plantations date back to the 1920s and 30s but any that were planted then would be on their third growth by now.
Estate plantations put in on country estates to encourage pheasants, provide a cash crop or improve the view. they tend to be hardwood and can date back to the 18th century.
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