Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Andy_Ross]

Coords? Of the entire coast.
I don't need to look at Google Earth, I am on the ground and can visit sites I am interested in. For literature and records I go to things called Libraries and Archives.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

*sigh*
(Attempt at distraction snipped)

That's evidence that plantations in general have to be constructed and maintained.
Not evidence that this specific plantation has been there for hundreds of years, abandoned, rediscovered by the government, who saw fit to lie about this and rebuild it. Which was what you were claiming. Not only that, but if a tree plantation really needs the intensive care you claim, there couldn't have been any mature trees there when the site was 'discovered' in the 60's.
Your 'arguments' are all over the place, and you deliberately derail and confabulate every time you're challenged. I almost can't believe that's in good faith.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What are you looking for, exactly?

Without knowing the locations your pictures look like victorian mineral extraction or modern land management work.

 

[Tolls]

Depending on how far apart they are planted they reach full height and maturity...this study has NOTHING to do with the trees I am talking about. In the photos I've provided via Google Earth trees are planted 45 feet apart, NOT 10 or 13 feet apart.

Where has anyone said they were planted 10 feet apart?
The quotes I've seen are 10m, or more.

Their forests dwarf our best agricultural efforts... I believe this image offers evidence that even our oldest rainforests were artificially planted:

Lat. 18° 5'49.10"S
Long. 60°50'1.72"W

Interesting choide of photo, as if you stick those in Google Maps you'll see those roads running off from a major highway in Bolivia, a few metres off the right of your clipped image.

Ruins from one of the farms...Yup, that's 1960's design alright...pfft.

On Google Earth, turn on the Photos option.

Why do you think they have to be 1960s ruins?
You were already informed that the area had been used for nitrates extraction in the 19th century, which is the reason much of the original forest was chopped down.

 

[King of the Americas]

Coords? Of the entire coast.
I don't need to look at Google Earth, I am on the ground and can visit sites I am interested in. For literature and records I go to things called Libraries and Archives.

Lat. 54°23'16.50"N
Long. 0°38'32.38"W

See the dark forest area that was stripped clean, and never replanted? What kind of trees are those?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

That doesn't mean anything...

Find the funding for this project or close your face hole.

Just because you were unable to find the right information online doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere. Nor does it mean that others should do your work for you.
Have you contacted the Chilean government as I suggested? I'm sure their input would be invaluable.

 

[King of the Americas]

That's evidence that plantations in general have to be constructed and maintained.
Not evidence that this specific plantation has been there for hundreds of years, abandoned, rediscovered by the government, who saw fit to lie about this and rebuild it. Which was what you were claiming. Not only that, but if a tree plantation really needs the intensive care you claim, there couldn't have been any mature trees there when the site was 'discovered' in the 60's.
Your 'arguments' are all over the place, and you deliberately derail and confabulate every time you're challenged. I almost can't believe that's in good faith.

Here's the problem- I don't teach Kindergarten.

If you can't hold two ideas in your head at the same time, I am going to abandon this exchange...

One, the study provided is NOT about the planting of this site- they speak to spacing that is completely different than this site. Also, the study cites the requirements for sprouting and establishing ONE tree, doing math, one finds that Chile did NOT have these resources available, then or now.

Two, the study also provides photographs of a fully matured plantation, WITH untrimmed trees:

---

These trees 'stabilize' in their growth pattern, the maximum canopy width is based on the distance they are planted apart, and the water they receive.

There has been very little change in the tree-size from the pictures taken then, to today...

 

[John Jones]

It's called re-occupation.

AND, many of the trees are dead- those that failed to reach ground water...

How is it not odd to you and ALL of the skeptics here, that there is NO FUNDING associated with this project, no media, no history, and no person or people who took credit as its designer or builders??

I don't believe that to be the case. You have simply asserted these things without even looking, and expect us to do your homework.

 

[King of the Americas]

Just because you were unable to find the right information online doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere. Nor does it mean that others should do your work for you.
Have you contacted the Chilean government as I suggested? I'm sure their input would be invaluable.

NO ONE has found or produced a SINGLE shred of evidence...

I have looked, on multiple occasions, read and posted links to multiple books on Chile's economic history, and haven't found anything.

But, by ALL MEANS...go forth, gather the evidence you claim exists, and present it here.

I have checked every source I could, with no results.

The study provided shows the requirements for establishing ONE tree..."11 waterings" that soak the ground...then watering ever 20 days... Chile is not now, nor 50 years ago, was it capable of providing an additional 100's of millions of water for a plantation in the desert...*Citations provided.

This project has no designer, lead engineer, budget, plans, workers, or infrastructure still available for review...

I've looked, others have looked, and NOTHING...

Please, prove me wrong...produce that which you claim exists.

 

[John Jones]

Buddy, if you don't understand that, this exchange is beyond you. Try amusing yourself with some primary colored blocks with rounded edges.

Do you know of any governments that have digitized their 54 year old budget documents and posted them on the web in the interest of "historical transparency"?

Before you tell me to go and do your homework for you, remember that I'm asking if you know of any.

 

[King of the Americas]

I don't believe that to be the case. You have simply asserted these things without even looking, and expect us to do your homework.

You are asking me to produce information that does not exist.

I've looked, this project has no financial connection to Chile's recent economic history.

 

[King of the Americas]

Do you know of any governments that have digitized their 54 year old budget documents and posted them on the web in the interest of "historical transparency"?

Before you tell me to go and do your homework for you, remember that I'm asking if you know of any.

Here:

 

[Tolls]

One thing about budgets.
CONAF is not a government agency, it is private.
Or at least was (I think there might have been attempts to get it absorbed as a government department).

Anyway, this means looking at the Chilean government for funding is not necessarily going to give anyone any results.

Besides.
It's all pointless anyway, unless KotA can come up with a reason for CONAF (and any number of other international agencies that use this forest as an example) to make it all up.

Because if I was a cynic I would think he's just trying to get us to run around.

Oh yes, and that photo of a tall tree?
Not all the trees are part of the 60s-onwards replanting. As, indeed, one of the docs posted earlier even mentions some 1930s planting (closer together) and also the entire area was not denuded of trees, just mostly so.

 

[John Jones]

Here:

So no, you don't know of any government that posts digitized, 54 year-old budgets for the sake of historical transparency.

I knew you didn't.

 

[King of the Americas]

Where has anyone said they were planted 10 feet apart?
The quotes I've seen are 10m, or more.



Interesting choide of photo, as if you stick those in Google Maps you'll see those roads running off from a major highway in Bolivia, a few metres off the right of your clipped image.



Why do you think they have to be 1960s ruins?
You were already informed that the area had been used for nitrates extraction in the 19th century, which is the reason much of the original forest was chopped down.

10 = 30 feet. These were planted 45 feet apart. Those two numbers are NOT equal. The GRAPH I posted, and HERE again, shows 13, 10, 7, and 6 "meter" separations. 13 m = 39 feet...again that's NOT 45 feet. The trees bordering each square are planted 15 feet apart.

Roads? Ignore the roads, the image I posted shows 'rows' of trees in the rainforest. If you zoom out and look the entire forest has a grid pattern underlay.

Because they are part of the wall that made up the orchard border??? So that building is from the late 1800's...AND there was ANOTHER forest in this desert, that was all chopped down...???

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I am sorry, I simply cannot continue with our exchange. I believe to do so, would be a waste of my time...

 

[John Jones]

10 = 30 feet. These were planted 45 feet apart. Those two numbers are NOT equal. The GRAPH I posted, and HERE again, shows 13, 10, 7, and 6 "meter" separations. 13 m = 39 feet...again that's NOT 45 feet. The trees bordering each square are planted 15 feet apart.

...

The distances in question are "10 meters, or more"

 

[Andy_Ross]

Lat. 54°23'16.50"N
Long. 0°38'32.38"W

See the dark forest area that was stripped clean, and never replanted? What kind of trees are those?

That is Forestry Commission plantation, all pine of various species, planted between 40 and 50 years ago and currently cropped out and replanted. They tend to be planted on hillsides and in to valleys. You can see on the Moor top outside the plantation where the Heather has been burnew off in pale strip's to encourage new growth for Grouse. Fylingdales Moor and all those around are all part of various Shooting Estates.
If you head south you will see RAF Fylingdales the Early Warning Station. Part of the chain of US radar stations looking out for ICBMS. A bit further south are much bigger plantations making up Dalby Forest.
Track west to Rosedale and you can see the extensive remains of the old mines and railway that used to run round the valley side. Overy on the coast you can see evidence of extensive 18th century Alum quarrying on the headlands running north from Scarborough up past Whitby at Ravenscar, Saltwick, Sandsend, Kettleness, Boulby and Loftus.

(This area is my back yard)

Anything else

 

[Roboramma]

Aheeeeeeeeeem...

"...10 × 10 m in square formation and 15 × 15 m in triangular..."

These squares have trees 45 feet apart, 15 feet apart around the border...

15m = 49 feet.

Do you really think there's some discrepancy here?

 

[Roboramma]

So you think large projects DON'T increase spending??

Not necessarily, no. It also depends on the size of the project.

 

[King of the Americas]

That is Forestry Commission plantation, all pine of various species, planted between 40 and 50 years ago and currently cropped out and replanted. They tend to be planted on hillsides and in to valleys. You can see on the Moor top outside the plantation where the Heather has been burnew off in pale strip's to encourage new growth for Grouse. Fylingdales Moor and all those around are all part of various Shooting Estates.
If you head south you will see RAF Fylingdales the Early Warning Station. Part of the chain of US radar stations looking out for ICBMS. A bit further south are much bigger plantations making up Dalby Forest.
Track west to Rosedale and you can see the extensive remains of the old mines and railway that used to run round the valley side. Overy on the coast you can see evidence of extensive 18th century Alum quarrying on the headlands running north from Scarborough up past Whitby at Ravenscar, Saltwick, Sandsend, Kettleness, Boulby and Loftus.

(This area is my back yard)

Anything else

Yes!

Thank you so much for your insight and participation!

Can you date any of these sections of common planting?

Especially the lines of trees in the far right image...